1. Welcome to PHOTRIO! APUG & DPUG members can re-login with your APUG or DPUG username and password. If you prefer 100% Analog (APUG) content then uncheck "Hybrid" and "Digital" in the site header (page top, right next to the PHOTRIO logo). PHOTRIO is still under construction for the next few weeks, but we felt it was stable enough to open. The forum categories need a major restructuring and we'll be working on that and much more. For a "quick start" guide to new features CLICK HERE. To report bugs and feature requests CLICK HERE. Thank you for your patience, and please keep in mind we are still finishing off the site. (Close this notice by clicking the X to the top right of the notice box).

The definitive word (I hope) on color stabilzers!

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by Photo Engineer, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. dale116dot7

    dale116dot7 Subscriber

    Messages:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    Calgary AB
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I've been running the 'new' 6E6 Fuji Hunt E6 kit and I did not see any reference to formaldehyde in any of the MSDS. I do wear PPE anyways (mask, face shield, gloves, apron), but I looked and didn't see any of the synonyms for formaldehyde. Surely there must be something in there to stabilize the dyes?
     
  2. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If it has a pre-bleach bath, this likely contains sodium formaldehyde bisulfite which changes into formalin and sulfur dioxide when the time is right. If it does not, then the Fuji E6 films have changed and the process is not suitable for ANY old E6 film from Kodak unless there is a formalin bath of some sort.

    PE
     
  3. dale116dot7

    dale116dot7 Subscriber

    Messages:
    39
    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Location:
    Calgary AB
    Shooter:
    35mm
    There is a pre-bleach with EDTA in it, nothing else on the MSDS. I was curious about this - you might be (and probably are) right, they might have changed the film formulation to not require the formalin. Sometimes I process some old Kodak E6 film (or X-pro SO-279) but those are artistic shots I'm not worried about.
     
  4. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If Fuji, use their process, if Kodak old E6, use a formalin stabilizer then.

    PE
     
  5. Abutate

    Abutate Member

    Messages:
    77
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2016
    Location:
    GB
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    PE:

    Thanks again for such a detailed thread.
    I have got some Kodak Vericolor III 35mm Film to process which expired in 95 to 1999.

    Can i just buy Formaldehyde 37% Solution From amazon/ebay and mix 10ML in 190ML of water to make 200ML Solution?


    Thanks again
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Yes, but then add the required amount of Photo Flo 200 to make that 200 ml of solution.

    I forget the amount, but probably in the range of 1/2 to 2 ml.

    PE
     
  7. Abutate

    Abutate Member

    Messages:
    77
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2016
    Location:
    GB
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    PE:

    You are very kind. keep you posted.
     
  8. iandvaag

    iandvaag Subscriber

    Messages:
    156
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Location:
    Saskatchewan, Canada
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    PE, in the OP you said the rate should be 3-10mL Formalin per liter. Since Abutate is using only 1/5th of a liter (200mL), won't 10mL of formalin be 5 times too much? Or does it not really matter?
     
  9. Truzi

    Truzi Member

    Messages:
    1,914
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2012
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Groups:
    From the various posts PE made regarding stabilizer in this and other threads, I did the following:

    10.0 ml formalin
    2.5 ml Photo Flo
    Added distilled water to make 1 liter.

    It seems to have worked for me, but it will probably take a few decades to find out. I was purposely light on the Photo Flow.
     
  10. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Formalin is the active ingredient here. Photo Flo just prevents water spots.

    PE
     
  11. Abutate

    Abutate Member

    Messages:
    77
    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2016
    Location:
    GB
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I absolutely do not want to hijack the thread.

    What happens if we use current stabilizer on old films made/expired before 2000

    thanks
     
  12. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    They fade!
     
  13. slx

    slx Member

    Messages:
    10
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Hi, I I'm looking for a final word about RA4 water washing and stabilizing.
    I understand, that because of the lack of silver, a microorganism killing agent, as for c41, would be useful.
    I also see that 'modern' minilabs waterless process substituted the final water rinse/wash with stabilizing bads.
    In the Kodak ra-4 sheets there is no mention of stabilizing bad in dark room (not minilab) processing (only water).
    A little bit confusing..
    What's your advice for the last steps (after the bloc step in the processor) of dark room color processing?
    Only water? Only stabilizing? Both? What are the differences between c41 and ra4 stabilizing bads?
    Thank you all for your help!
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    A water wash for color paper is just fine as long as no red bleach fix color remains in the wash water. A stabilzer is available for it to help protect against attack by microorganizms and there are those that will further extend stability. I suggest just the wash, or wash plus RA4 stabilizer.

    PE
     
  16. slx

    slx Member

    Messages:
    10
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    What are the differences between RA4 and c41 stabilizing. I'm courius, I read the whole (very interesting) thread, which is more focused on the differences between e6 and c41.
    Moreover how can I in case recognize a stability improving stabilizing ?
    Thanks PE!
     
  17. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,670
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Silver as either the metal or ion is a powerful biocide. Since it nearly impossible to completely remove it from emulsions I would think that bacterial attack is highly improbable. It has been claimed that people who eat with silver tableware have a lower risk of gastrointestinal diseases.
     
  18. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Formalin stabilzed older dyes from fade by neutralizing infestation by mold and bacteria, but it also reacted with excess coupler thereby preventing formation of byproducts and preventing yellowing. Today, new couplers are used that avoid most of these problems. Also UV absorbers and free radical eliminators are used in paper coatings. It is expected that papers are exposed to more extreme conditions than films.

    PE
     
  19. nevintagefilms

    nevintagefilms Member

    Messages:
    38
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Shooter:
    Sub 35mm
    Forgive me if I am being redundant or not getting it... but... should we still try to use a formaldehyde-based final rinse/stabilizer on new c41 stocks or is the "final rinse" solution (https://www.uniquephoto.com/product...m-5-liters-8673170/_/searchString/final rinse) sufficient to have archival quality c41.

    Also, what should I use with E6. I am going to get the FUJI E6 solution:

    http://www.freestylephoto.biz/660162-Fuji-Hunt-Chrome-6X-E-6-Processing-Kit-5-Liters


    Lastly, I am going to start with the cheapest Arista E6 kit: http://www.freestylephoto.biz/1181-Arista-Rapid-E-6-Slide-Developing-Kit-1-Pint

    Can I use c41 bleach and fixer with this rather than use the included "Blix" combo?

    Thanks!
     
  20. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Use either final rinse or stabilizer with modern color films of any sort.

    There is a blix / bleach thread that gives instruction for your question. The short answer is yes.

    PE
     
  21. elerion

    elerion Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Location:
    Spain
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm aware of many threads about chemical toxicity, which is not really the point of this message.
    Developer, stop and blix are rinsed, so properly used, I'm not concerned about them.

    But stabilizer should not be removed from the film. It stays on it, and once dried, you handle the negatives unaware of it.

    Does the stabilizer remain on the film? does it suppose any risk if unhandled properly? For example, when used for enlarging, or scanning.

    I read that stabilizers are quite nasty for health (but don't know if they are formaldehyde-based ones, or all of them). I haven't find formaldehyde in the Tetenal kit MSDS (but not being an expert, I don't know many othe its ingredients, which may be similar).

    Thanks!
     
  22. PittP

    PittP Member

    Messages:
    92
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2007
    Location:
    Nairobi
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Slide/reversal film (E6-development) still requires formalin as had been stated in a myriad of posts on this site. Considering the miniscule amounts retained in/on the developed film, and as one normally would not eat the developed films, well, I can't imagine any health issues (possibly except for hyper-allergic issues, though I've never heard of regarding the developed films).
    The health warnings on chemistry apply to the packeged product, not the developed film.
    The Tetenal Colortec E6-kit has formalin in the final stabiliser bath:
    upload_2017-4-21_14-11-47.png
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
  23. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The formalin reacts with the gelatin and residual couplers and is therefore rendered harmless. This takes place during drying.

    PE
     
  24. B&Wpositive

    B&Wpositive Member

    Messages:
    433
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Shooter:
    35mm
    PE,

    What about the current Fuji "Stabilizer" (not Formalin, but: 1,2-Benziso-thiazolin-3-one). A little chemistry knowledge is a dangerous thing, but mine tells me this is a keytone, whereas Formalin is an aldehyde. Any comments on the potential suitability of this newer Fuji Stabilizer for older C-41 film that you say requires Formalin?

    Source: http://www.largeformatphotography.i...-what-is-the-stabilizer-in-fuji-hunt-chemical
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
  25. OP
    OP
    Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    27,221
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sodium Formaldehyde Bisulfite or some similar compound is added before the bleach and is activated then to supply the stabilizing action. The compound you mention is a bacteriostat / fungicide to prevent gelatin deterioration.

    PE
     
  26. B&Wpositive

    B&Wpositive Member

    Messages:
    433
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Shooter:
    35mm
    PE,

    To clarify: The role of 1,2-Benziso-thiazolin-3-one is strictly a bacteriostat/fungicide and has no real stabilization role like Formalin??

    If so, wouldn't that mean the Fuji process is unsuitable for older C-41 film?