110/16mm Camera Image Quality

Donald Qualls · Jul 9, 2022

Bronson Dugnutt said:
It is ortho film; I posted the spectral response curve (snazzy hat) a bit further up the page. It can be developed by inspection under a red safelight just as Fuji's large format double sided x-ray films. It also has a noticeable UV sensitivity. The stripes/banding on the flower petals below are only visible in UV.

Nice. Now I need to go order a roll of the 16 mm and get my Kiev 30 and 303 out and load some up. I can deal with the speed change of an ortho film with light color, but not so much with an 1860 color response. An additional bonus is you can *load the cassettes* under red safelight. That also means I stand some chance of successfully reloading a 110 cartridge (though I don't have a 110 camera at present that will give enough exposure for ISO 25).

Huss · Jul 9, 2022

Bronson Dugnutt said:
It is ortho film; I posted the spectral response curve (snazzy hat) a bit further up the page. It can be developed by inspection under a red safelight just as Fuji's large format double sided x-ray films. It also has a noticeable UV sensitivity. The stripes/banding on the flower petals below are only visible in UV.

View attachment 309937

Its always easy to tell when new neighbors move in. Their dogs go apeshit whenever a guy with a camera wanders by. There's no way I'd ever spend $42 on a dog... a cat maybe.

My free dogs make up for it with their vet bills.

Huss · Jul 9, 2022

Ray Morgenweck · Jul 9, 2022

I shoot a LOT of 17.5 using a variety of Japanese Midget/Mycro class Cameras. My favorite film is Agfa ASP 400S imperforate. Actually, there’s no problem at all using an 8” piece of any 16mm film attached to the 11” backing paper. I bought packs of long dead film just to get spools. Using original spools I use new backing paper cut from 120 backers and this film slit in half. I don’t worry about frame numbers since the windows on all these cameras will fog modern film. I close the sliding windows or cover it with a bit of black electrical tape. Advance is by “three pinch turns”. After a bit you get good at it. In order of image quality, I rate them 1. Mighty. 2. Original model Jilona Midget 3. Tone 4. MYRACLE II,5. Midget third Model, 6. Mycro. The KEY to making good pictures to to absolutely eliminate camera movement when applying the shutter. All these cameras have three element lenses, the Tone alone capable of focus. Fear not though the 25mm lenses have full depth of field as set, favoring the 10’ Range in particular. The shutter sound is nearly quiet, most have a shutter you need to cock before firing, so you can tell if you’ve shot. The Odiginsl Midget has a simple one downstroke shutter, so sometimes it’s hard to know if you’ve sxpossd. The Tone and the Mighty are made by Toko optical and I think they are the best to use for shooting today. 17.5 is small, but actually a tad bigger than square frame 110 ( if that existed). A sneak preview....Mike Eckman has a TONE and I’ve given him a supply of BW and Ektar color film. Look forward to That review!!

awty · Jul 9, 2022

HI
If I have a Minolta 16 QT, do I just need any Minolta film cartridge to reload film or do I need a specific cartridge?

Timmyjoe · Jul 10, 2022

awty said:
HI
If I have a Minolta 16 QT, do I just need any Minolta film cartridge to reload film or do I need a specific cartridge?

I think all the Minolta 16 cartridges are the same. I use the same cartridges in my Minolta 16II and my Minolta 16 QT. They are all interchangeable.

Best,
-Tim

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 10, 2022

The 17.5mm subminis are quite appealing if you like variety. Models like the Gemflex could definitely qualify as 'Medium format'. Pairing this type of cameras with modern films (especially color) creates very distinctive results so I'm looking forward to what M.E. manages to do with it.

All the Minolta 16 cameras use the same universal cart. The QT (and MG-s) expose more of the 16mm film area (17x12mm vs 14x10mm) so are best used with correctly oriented single-perf or unperforated film.

Minolta 16 QT (f3.5 @ 1/30s)
FPP Ultra Blue ISO 3, Rodinal 1+150 & 5mg CD-2; 60' semi-stand
V800 scan, cropped frame

And a J5 digitization

Here's an exaggerated look at the color response, negative and positive. The CD-2 was added about 20 minutes into development so the effect is extremely muted, but discernable. Strong 'blue' shadows with the slightest beginnings of a response from the other color layers, but with eXtreme cross-over. I might try bleaching a couple of these and see what dye remains.

xkaes · Jul 11, 2022

Bronson Dugnutt said:
All the Minolta 16 cameras use the same universal cart.

There were actually three versions made by Minolta -- nearly identical. The first was metal, but this was soon replaced with the more standard plastic type. Minolta made two plastic models, identical except that on the second version a notch or indentation was cut into the cassette bridge to make it easier to break off the film take-up lobe for processing purposes. (If you have the newer version it's a good idea to fill in the notch with a little epoxy to make it last longer.) To complicate matters even more, similar cassettes were made by other companies, such as Yashica (which sold a camera that used the Minolta cassette), a company called FR (which sold the film and offered processing), Kiev (only their early cassettes will fit in Minolta cameras), and others. The Minolta cassettes are fairly easy to find today -- especially the notched, plastic ones -- but beware of fakes, and 3-D printer-made models, which are prone to light leaks through the tops.

I personally like the Yashica version, but it's hard to find.

Also, the Minolta, Yashica and FR cassettes will fit in the early KIEV cameras.

awty · Jul 12, 2022

xkaes said:
There were actually three versions made by Minolta -- nearly identical. The first was metal, but this was soon replaced with the more standard plastic type. Minolta made two plastic models, identical except that on the second version a notch or indentation was cut into the cassette bridge to make it easier to break off the film take-up lobe for processing purposes. (If you have the newer version it's a good idea to fill in the notch with a little epoxy to make it last longer.) To complicate matters even more, similar cassettes were made by other companies, such as Yashica (which sold a camera that used the Minolta cassette), a company called FR (which sold the film and offered processing), Kiev (only their early cassettes will fit in Minolta cameras), and others. The Minolta cassettes are fairly easy to find today -- especially the notched, plastic ones -- but beware of fakes, and 3-D printer-made models, which are prone to light leaks through the tops.

I personally like the Yashica version, but it's hard to find.

Also, the Minolta, Yashica and FR cassettes will fit in the early KIEV cameras.

Thanks for the clarification.
My little QT turned up today. Wasn't working so I undid the two screws either side and the metal cover came off easy. Gave it a light lube and some actuations and it was firing again. Went back together just as easy. All the optics are clean and it is in good shape. Just need to replace the light seals and get a cartridge.
What batteries do people use?

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 12, 2022

Any way you can cram 3 volts into the battery compartment. The accepted 'modern' solution is 2 1.5V LR44 with metal spacers (coins) to fill up the rest of the space.

The batteries are used solely to power the meter and don't have any direct effect on the aperture or shutter speed which are both mechanically controlled. Both of my QTs' meters will illuminate / respond when batteries are inserted but give non-sense readings. The CdS cells in the previous MG-s seem to have held up pretty well, so the issue is probably a bum component in the metering circuitry (the orange board on the left).

The metering circuitry would be an excellent candidate for a bit of reverse engineering as it is easily accessible, relatively simple, and often malfunctioning IME.

Edit --

Minolta 16 QT, F3.5 @ 1/30s
FPP Ultra Blue ISO 3, 'Y48' filter; C-41
Heavy color correction during scan

Positive scan (w/ ICE), manual color inversion. Quite a bit better IMHO. The shadow bars on the right are from the film holders during scanning. The film base is very thin and transparent which magnifies these sort of reflections.

Aaaand one more from a J5 digitzation and attempted manual color inversion. Oddly, I was unable to manually convert the jpg positive and I had to use the RAW file. The green channel is bananas compared to the scanner for some reason... must be the light source & sensor combo.

The purplish blobs are particles in the J5's lens.

awty · Jul 13, 2022

Bronson Dugnutt said:
Blam, that's a great combo. I had a similar cap incident with some ektachrome and there was some fogging but most frames weren't ruined. The film winding must be tight enough to form the littlest bit of a 'daylight spool' on the receiving side.

The grain & tonality remind me of a panchromatic version of FPP Sonic 25 (3378) which I've been shooting as of late. I've mixed up stock solutions of D-23, DK-60a, and D-19 to go along with last year's champion, a new gallon of Xtol, in hopes of squeezing flatter negatives out of this film. Great stuff if you can deal with its ortho-ness; a yellow filter might help.

Minolta MG-s, shutter priority
FPP Sonic 25; D-23 stock 8'
V800 scan & J5 digitization

View attachment 309767 View attachment 309768

First attempt with this combo to see the effect on contrast / density. Not as contrast-taming as I'd hoped, some uneven development (I'm looking at you, yankee clipper), and shadow speed suffers as well. Great middle tones though. The house and adjacent roof blew out much faster than the blue sky, which is odd. Maybe I need a UV filter.

Does the Sonic 25 have any edge markings to indicate what film it is?
I have roll of partially used non perforated 16mm copy stand film (from a Minolta copy stand), which I assume is Ortho film. I have to develop a piece to see whether it is fogged and maybe it will have some markings to tell what it is.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 13, 2022

Yes, but they're relatively inconspicuous and extremely rudimentary, unlike the parade of edge codes found on double-x, vision3, etc.

They also intersect with the sprockets which is something you don't see in the other stocks. Almost like adding the perfs was an afterthought...

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 13, 2022

Canon 110ED 20 w/ Fuji Superia 200 @ 80 ('Process before 2003-5')
Modified C-41 -- +15% sulfite, +50% bromide, +2mL 1% benzotriazol sol'n, -30% carbonate (oops! used the mass for 200mL instead of 300mL)
V800 negative scans

Zero fog and pretty good color rendering given the botched pH of the developer. Had to destroy a 110 cassette (again) after exposing it in the 110ED... the backing paper got jammed somehow and I'm starting to think it's a feature of this particular camera. I'll give it one more chance and if it eats the cassette (again) I'll probably look to sell the camera.

Huss · Jul 13, 2022

Bronson Dugnutt said:
Canon 110ED 20 w/ Fuji Superia 200 @ 80 ('Process before 2003-5')
Modified C-41 -- +15% sulfite, +50% bromide, +2mL 1% benzotriazol sol'n, -30% carbonate (oops! used the mass for 200mL instead of 300mL)
V800 negative scans

View attachment 310320

View attachment 310321

Zero fog and pretty good color rendering given the botched pH of the developer. Had to destroy a 110 cassette (again) after exposing it in the 110ED... the backing paper got jammed somehow and I'm starting to think it's a feature of this particular camera. I'll give it one more chance and if it eats the cassette (again) I'll probably look to sell the camera.

Nice! I find the colours come out much better when I convert the images with negativelabpro.com if I crop out the fun colored borders. But I like the borders plus this is 110 film we are playing with!

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 13, 2022

The scanner correction for the odd frame is pretty much spot on. All the more lamentable as Fuji winds down their legacy film production. They sure knew how to put together a package.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 14, 2022

awty · Jul 14, 2022

I found the micro film box and after ripping off a bit of film found a good bit. ISO 6 will be a bit challenging.

Cholentpot · Jul 14, 2022

awty said:
I found the micro film box and after ripping off a bit of film found a good bit. ISO 6 will be a bit challenging.
View attachment 310354 View attachment 310355

I've been shooting this stuff at ISO 50.

awty · Jul 14, 2022

Cholentpot said:
I've been shooting this stuff at ISO 50.

Great, that sounds more userable.

Cholentpot · Jul 14, 2022

awty said:
Great, that sounds more userable.

1:175 or thereabouts in Rodinal. Stand for 1 hour. Seems to work. There are zero highlights on this stuff though.

Huss · Jul 15, 2022

Rollei A110, Fuji Superia

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 15, 2022

Does anyone have experience ordering rolls of microfilm from non-ebay sources as of late? This storefront appears to offer a variety of Kodak & Fuji stocks, some of which are available in single rolls. I'm still trying to distinguish between the characteristics of the films on offer, but the 'Fuji PT-21 HR-II Medium Speed Low Contrast' sounds interesting.

The latest addition to the collection (and my first Rollei) rollei'd off the USPS truck this afternoon.

All modes and functions are in working order, including the fully-programmed auto mode, but I've yet to put any film through it to test meter accuracy. Despite the compensation dial being marked "0, -1, -2, -3" the manual describes it as a 'filter compensation' adjustment which seems to imply additional exposure rather than less. A possible metering range from 1.5-200 ISO seems a bit ridiculous, but so does 12-1600 ISO.

It says 'GOSSEN' right on it so it can't be all that bad... first up will probably be a load of double-x, followed by some ektachrome to really sus out the selenium meter.

Edit --

I tried out a slightly short load of double-x, shot to about exposure 16, then 'rewound' the film. The advance mechanism had happily peeled the film off of the cassette spindle around exposure 14 or so and all the film was still in the take-up side. Luckily I opened up the camera in my changing bag when loading the reel, so I developed the film normally.

Rollei 16 'A' mode
Double-X @ 200, Xtol 1+1 11'

The meter seems sound enough for b&w negative. The high-key scenes appear a bit blown out but I think that's a function of cramming all the frames' contrast range into a single scan.

The viewfinder parallax is badly under-corrected at the closest focusing distances, but maybe there's an adjustment screw somewhere.

Great lens with diamond bokehs.

Edit 2 --

The viewfinder screen was showing a strong toe-out relative to the film plane when focused at infinity and only slight toe-in at the closest focus distance. Sure enough, there's an obvious tensioning screw you can use to set the screen angle (at infinity). The alignment isn't perfect but framing appears to be much more accurate now.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 16, 2022

Rollei 16, 'A' Mode
FPP Sonic 12 @ 16; B&W reversal D-19 5'

J5 + 11-27.5mm on tubes / V800

Always a tidy 3 sprockets per frame.

ciniframe · Jul 17, 2022

Had one of those way back, early 70’s, but it was so large and heavy that in practice I preferred my Olympus Pen viewfinder (original with full manual exposure and focus by scale) camera.
Great lens, marvelous large viewfinder, but for 16mm, not a small camera.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jul 17, 2022

ciniframe said:
Had one of those way back, early 70’s, but it was so large and heavy that in practice I preferred my Olympus Pen viewfinder (original with full manual exposure and focus by scale) camera.
Great lens, marvelous large viewfinder, but for 16mm, not a small camera.

It's on the larger end of 16mm cameras, but is still dwarfed by the likes of the 110ED. I'd say it's most comparable in size and use to a Minolta MG-s, but it handles a lot like the original 16.

For half-frame I'd opt for the Demi which, as you can see, shares a lot of the aesthetics of the Rollei.

110/16mm Camera Image Quality

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