Any ascorbic acid based developer that is as simple as Caffenol et al?

baachitraka · Nov 18, 2014

I do not know the science behind pushing the film but this Caffenol is doing at ease with good tonality.

May I know, is there any other ascorbic acid based developer that is good as a caffenol?

mrred · Nov 18, 2014

PC-TEA. As simple as it gets.

baachitraka · Nov 18, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
It may be somewhat subjective to say which of its constituent developing agents a developer is based on, but XTOL is about as advanced as it gets in terms of a general purpose developer making use of ascorbic acid. For a long-lasting concentrate intended to mimic XTOL, see Mark Overton's MOCON.

As for more "simple" formulations, I have been working on a special purpose developer for some time, as a theory/application/proof-of-concept project. It has been both interesting and fun, with the help of some other APUG members. It's a one-shot formula containing only Dimezone, ascorbic acid and sodium sulfite.

Dimezone +Ascorbic Acid + Sodium sulfite sounds interesting. If I remember correctly some moons ago PE recommended to look into Dimezone et al for its keeper properties. Can you share little more about DASS?

I look the shelf life of a developer something like Rodinal...how does DASS keep?

JW PHOTO · Nov 18, 2014

mrred said:
PC-TEA. As simple as it gets.

+1 If you love simple and like "long lasting" then this Buds for you. John W

ritternathan · Nov 18, 2014

Just do a search on Ascorbic Acid developers and you will see that except for PC-TEA, these cannot be called simple. I think the last thread on AA developers ran 55 or 60 pages. That said, I have played with PC-TEA and liked what I got with PC-Glycol and borax better. But when there was Xtol scare and it was out of stock, I started mixing DS-10 (it's not simple but probably the best one if mixing at home).

Very fine grain film developer

Water 750 ml
Dimezone S 0.15 g
Ascorbic Acid 8g
Boric Acid 4g
Salicylic Acid 1g
Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 75g
Triethanolamine 99% 10ml
Water to make 1000ml

Mixing Instructions: Add chemicals in specified sequence.
Dilution: Stock or 1+1
Usage: Starting point dev time: 10 mins (Stock)

I have had it last two months in glass bottles with no air, but you can also mix it 10x without the sulfite and then add P. Glycol to make 300ml. It will dissolve in about a week with stirring and you will have a thick light yellow mess. You can heat it with a warm water bath to make it easier to stir. When at room temp., get a syringe and measure 30ml, add to 750ml of water with 75g of Sulfite and then add water to 1L.

Alan Johnson · Nov 19, 2014

If air is kept out of the container a 5x concentrate of Ryuji Suzuki's DS-2 is not too complicated:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

It would probably be possible to get the same pH and grain as, say, Caffenol C-M just by mixing ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate, then adding a little phenidone to make an even more simple developer but AFAIK nobody has done this experiment.

Rudeofus · Nov 19, 2014

Ascorbate developers have two natural enemies: Oxygen and trace metal impurities. Oxygen will slowly and irreversibly oxidize it, and many trace metals (Iron, Copper, ...) catalyze this reaction and speed it up by orders of magnitude. With these facts in mind, you have three categories of Ascorbate developers:

Single shot mix as you go developers like Michael's low contrast brews or Kodak's MC test developer. These developers won't last longer than a few hours, and if they go bad they won't show any signs of deterioration, you only learn about it when your negs come out blank.
Water based developers or concentrates that contain a sequestering agent to render trace metals ineffective. Examples are Ryuji Suzuki's DS-x developers (x = 10, 12, 14, 15) and, of course, Kodak's Xtol. These developers are said to last for about half a year or longer, depending to some extent on the water you use for mixing them.
Water free concentrates from which you can make single shot mix as you go developers. These developers can last for a very long time, because they effectively inhibit the decomposition of Ascorbic Acid. Well know examples are PC-TEA, PC-Glycol and Mark Overton's MoCon.

Rudeofus · Nov 19, 2014

Alan Johnson said:
It would probably be possible to get the same pH and grain as, say, Caffenol C-M just by mixing ascorbic acid and sodium carbonate, then adding a little phenidone to make an even more simple developer but AFAIK nobody has done this experiment.

IIRC, most fine grain formulas based on Phenidone and Ascorbic Acid work at pH below what you get with Carbonate/Bicarbonate. How about Borax, Ascorbic Acid and Phenidone?

removed account4 · Nov 19, 2014

jay defehr and a few others over in the caffenol palace ( flickr ) have been using phenidone and coffee and a few other things
its hard to judge from online photographs but the images look pretty nice ...

pdeeh · Nov 19, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
What we could really use is some sensitometry/data on Caffenol...

What we could really do with is some methodical and rigorous research on how it works

One of the difficulties is that because it's a "household" developer, one can't count on one person's brew being the same as another's.
Even if they are simply sticking to the carbonate/ascorbic/coffee basics, the potential variability of the individual ingredients bring in so many unknowns.
(I have it on good authority that one madman actually mixes it up with some paper developer)

At least with D23, one person's brew should be pretty much identical to someone else's.

Curious, by the way, that you think of it as not a fine grain developer. It's certainly not a solvent developer, but all my negatives developed in Caffenol have a nice small sharp graininess to them (I pushed a roll of Acros at 200 in caffenol the other night and it looks better than the same film in D23 at 100).

But then again, graininess is usually judged subjectively, so any proper comparison between caffenol and other developers would need to be on a proper lab basis

grommi · Nov 19, 2014

Rudeofus said:
How about Borax, Ascorbic Acid and Phenidone?

Then we are close to Mytol without sulfite. Some carbonate will be needed because of the acidic Vit-C. Borax + Carbonate (mononohydrate) 1 + 4 = Kodalk? pH should be not much higher than 8.2, otherwise you get a lot of fog from the Phenidone. With a prediluted Phenidone in Glycol or Glycerol, prediluted Kodalk and pure Vit-C it should be easy to make a fresh mix each time you need it.

I made a double strenght Mytol readymixed with demin water and it kept about 1 year. Having a prediluted Phenidone at hand is very conveniant.

grommi · Nov 19, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
In addition, some have reported that Caffenol developers provide relatively low emulsion speed.

For Caffenol-C you can expect better film speed as with many other developers, on par with Xtol maybe.

E.g. I always have to smile when people tell that they expose Fuji Acros at EI 50 - 80 to get good results. They never tried a good Caffenol-C, you can go easy with EI 200 AND fine grain even in 35 mm format. Most other films also go nicely above boxspeed. As always, don't overdo it. You should have seen the Caffenol-work of this great photographer:
https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=55851410@N07&q=caffenol

removed account4 · Nov 19, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
What we could really use is some sensitometry/data on Caffenol...

is that commonsensetometry data on caffenol ?
not sure how that would happen
since most people with common sense seem to stay clear
of the strange brew !

and besides, if a crop of coffee beans was harvested a year ago, depending on the weather
its characteristics might be completely different than the same coffee harvested before or after that ..
and instant coffee manufacturers use different stock ingredients to make their coffees ...
depending on quality and availability of product. probably to the coffee drinker these subtle differences
aren't completely noticed but my poor guess would be that if the manufacturers used different beans
to make " old gringo " this year it would be completely different than the "old gringo" i used a few years ago
and got fantastic negatives ...

im clueless, and enjoy learning as much as a madman can learn that is .. :w00t:

grommi · Nov 19, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
What we could really use is some sensitometry/data on Caffenol...

How many years are we talking about the Caffenol-thing? Why don't you finally do it? It's sooooo easy.

grommi · Nov 19, 2014

jnanian said:
depending on quality and availability of product. probably to the coffee drinker these subtle differences
aren't completely noticed but my poor guess would be that if the manufacturers used different beans
to make " old gringo " this year it would be completely different than the "old gringo" i used a few years ago
and got fantastic negatives ...

Again I have to think about the universe I live in, it seems to be a different one. Producers are blending to get a consistant quality every year and the instant coffee we use here is of identical quality since many years. I don't roast beans, I buy a standardized products in the supermarket and use a standardized method to make the mix. Hundreds of people (at least) all over the world do it with great success.

Rant finished. Sorry.

ritternathan · Nov 19, 2014

I found my PC-Glycol notes:

2. PC-Glycol (P. Gainer) 100F 750ml  
Phenidone 2.5g
Ascorbic Acid 100g
(Potassium Bromide 2g--optional depending on how simple you want it)
Propylene Glycol to 1000ml

Working Solution: Use Borax with 25 g/l of working solution, use it full strength (2+100). Place to start: 35mm FP4+ EI 100 for 10 minutes at 70 F with agitation for 10 seconds of every minute. Phenidone and AA will mix at room temp. in glycol if patient.

removed account4 · Nov 19, 2014

grommi said:
Again I have to think about the universe I live in, it seems to be a different one. Producers are blending to get a consistant quality every year and the instant coffee we use here is of identical quality since many years. I don't roast beans, I buy a standardized products in the supermarket and use a standardized method to make the mix. Hundreds of people (at least) all over the world do it with great success.

Rant finished. Sorry.

i agree people use this developer worldwide with great success ... its fun, and easy, and relative easy to get great results.

it seems you don't believe what i have said, obviously you have not had similar experiences. we all seem to get our coffee from different places
but just the same, i have personal experience using coffees that didn't work, and other coffees that didn't work as well ...
i know for example, the coffee i used in france in 2007 was 100x better than the coffee i had been using from my local grocery store....
and i used to get varied results some good and some as good from 2 different types of instant coffees at my local store.
no, i wasn't a noobie, but someone with 4-5 years experience...
the other ingredients ( soda and vit c ) were the same batch of ingredients (from the same bottles) ... it was only the coffee that changed.
while some folks might suggest the reason things didn't work well for me for that time period might have been because of my eyeball-measurements
i had been making it the same way with the same exact method of measuring for the whole 4-5 years ( and i still don't measure my ingredients )
... the only thing that "changed" were the jars of coffee.

while i am quite aware that coffee companies have a consistent product, i also KNOW they change their blended ingredients often,
i worked at a coffee company for 4 years and know how the industry works. and i spoke with coffee companies that processed the instant coffee i used to use ( 4-5 years)
about their beans, the types of beans they used &c and they revealed to me that they are often from a different blend of beans...
and different beans have slightly different characteristics ( which i already knew ).
coffee companies that make instant coffees, as well as boutique coffees, "cup" coffees all the time to decide which beans from which growers suppliers &c they want to buy.
companies that make instant coffee are no different ...
besides different crops yielding different quality beans from the same bush depending on the weather &c
coffee plants don't produce coffee after something like 7 years, so, the harvest might be from may be different plants than "the last time" ....
these inconsistencies were part of the reason why i sourced the green beans that i currently use.

YMMV

albada · Nov 20, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
As for more "simple" formulations, I have been working on a special purpose developer for some time, as a theory/application/proof-of-concept project. It has been both interesting and fun, with the help of some other APUG members. It's a one-shot formula containing only Dimezone, ascorbic acid and sodium sulfite.

Michael, I created a simple developer which I called "PC-sulfite", described here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)
It's just Phenidone, Ascorbic acid and Sodium sulfite, and this formula would be a good place to start. As you probably know, it's almost as simple as D-23, but the hard part is measuring out tiny amounts of Phenidone. It's best to pre-dissolve Phenidone in a 1-2% solution (either w/v or w/w) of glycol.

Mark Overton

Gerald C Koch · Nov 20, 2014

Depends on how you define simple. The simplest version of caffenol has two ingredients. But people often add ascorbic acid and/or spike it with another developer. The developer is useful for people that cannot obtain conventional photochemicals. From examples one the web it also produces good results. But from the perspective of cost there are cheaper developers. At my last calculation the cheapest is the Beutler formula.

I would caution that coffee is a natural product and its composition can be somewhat variable. Manufacturers are concerned with such things as aroma and taste not developing capability. So always test when changing brands.

removed account4 · Nov 20, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Depends on how you define simple. The simplest version of caffenol has two ingredients. But people often add ascorbic acid and/or spike it with another developer. The developer is useful for people that cannot obtain conventional photochemicals. From examples one the web it also produces good results. But from the perspective of cost there are cheaper developers. At my last calculation the cheapest is the Beutler formula.

I would caution that coffee is a natural product and its composition can be somewhat variable. Manufacturers are concerned with such things as aroma and taste not developing capability. So always test when changing brands.

hi gerald
i spike or have been known to spike mine with ansco130
i mix 3L at a time, never replenish and after about 4 months dump some out
add some new caffenol in .. it costs about 1¢/development ...
you are right about test, even the same brand changes sometimes ! ( see above post )

Gerald C Koch · Nov 22, 2014

Did a bit of research and the is the Dr Blood developer which has three ingredients; ascorbic acid, phenidone, and sodium metaborate. This is an interesting developer. The ascorbic acid acts as both a developing agent and as a preservative like sulfite. Love the name Cyril T Blood.

Dr Blood Phenidone Ascorbate Developer
This is a speed increasing developer. Increase the EFS by 100 to 150%.

Stock Solution A
Distilled water (50°C) …………………………………………… 750 ml
Ascorbic acid …………………………………………………………………… 10.0 g
Phenidone ……………………………………………………………………………… 1.0 g
Distilled water to make ………………………………………… 1.0 l

The shelf life of this solution is approximately 3 months.

Stock Solution B
Distilled water (50°C) …………………………………………… 750 ml
Sodium metaborate ………………………………………………………… 87.5 g
Distilled water to make ………………………………………… 1.0 l

Usage<
For use mix 1 part of Solution A, 1 part of Solution B and 8 parts of water.

Development Times
Min
Manufacturer Film EFS Dil 20° 22° 24°
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Ilford Delta Pro 100 200 - 11 - -
Delta Pro 400 800 - 15 - -
Pan F Plus 100 - 7 - -
FP4 Plus 250 - 10 - -
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Kodak TMAX 100 200 - 12 - -
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————

Dr. Cyril T. Blood, British Journal of Photography, Oct 11, 1999.

Rudeofus · Nov 23, 2014

This developer recipe published by Dr. Blood looks very similar to PC-TEA except for choice of alkali. If it is indeed "speed increasing", while PC-TEA is said to lose half a stop, I wonder whether one could reformulate PC-TEA as PC-TEA/DEA and make a similarly speed increasing developer concentrate with only one stock solution and near infinite shelf life.

baachitraka · Nov 23, 2014

That will a nice gift for the new year.

Alan Johnson · Nov 23, 2014

Rudeofus said:
I wonder whether one could reformulate PC-TEA as PC-TEA/DEA and make a similarly speed increasing developer concentrate with only one stock solution and near infinite shelf life.

Gainer knew about DEA, IIRC he was of the opinion it should be left to the professionals.with which I agree.It is potentially highly dangerous when hot.

nworth · Nov 23, 2014

It may depend on the quality you can accept. There are several simple ascorbic acid developers. For instance:

Ascorbic acid film developer
Sodium hydroxide 1.7 g
Borax 6 g
Ascorbic acid (xtal) 2 g
Phenidone 20 mg
WTM 1 l
Use same development times as for D-76
Ref: Andy Cross, Visual Impact Photography, 2 Jan 00 to Ilford web site.

E-76 Film developer
Chris Patton's E-76 Film Developer
An ascorbic acid- phenidone developer similar to Kodak D-76.
Phenidone 200 mg
Sodium sulfite 100 g
Ascorbic acid 8 g
Borax 12 g
WTM 1 l
USAGE
Similar to D-76.
REFERENCE
Chris Patton's E-76 (Formula #26),The Darkroom Cookbook, 2nd Edition,
Stephen G. Anchell, p. 158.

Film Developer (Modified Gainer)
Kodalk 8 g
Ascorbic acid 2 g
Phenidone (1%) 10 ml
WTM 1 l
Same times a D-76.

Any ascorbic acid based developer that is as simple as Caffenol et al?

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