Are 4x5 and 9x12 one and the same?

lomomagix · Nov 15, 2008

I've seen a view camera advertised with both 4x5 and 9x12 in the title. Are both sizes one and the same (with 9x12 being just a metric equivalent)? Or are they different but both sizes of film could be used in one camera using different backs that could fit in the same camera? :confused:

Poohblah · Nov 15, 2008

logic says they are not: 9x12 is a 3:4 ratio while 4x5 is 4:5.

the metric conversion is 2.54cm to every 1 inch. so that means that 4x5 is about 10x12.5cm.

The camera likely includes both 4x5 and 9x12 backs.

lomomagix · Nov 15, 2008

Well, I did notice that ratio discrepancy immediately and yes, logic wanted to dictate to me that they would be two different species. My question was prompted however by an old document describing the size of a Polaroid Polacolor Pro 100 Sheet Film as "4x5 in (9x12 cm)":
< www.polaroid.com/service/filmdatasheets/4_5/p100fds.pdf >. That got me confused and made me wonder if they might be actually of the same size but produced different ratios when the numbers were rounded up to the nearest whole numbers.

Furthermore, a Frenchman in another forum once posted that in France, they use the terms 4x5 and 9x12 interchangeably but they just prefer the metric system, thus the popularity of 9x12 there. However, I don't seem to see any 9x12 film posted for sale.

And oh, I think I completely abandoned my logic when my spending for this hobby started to outpace my income!!!

P C Headland · Nov 15, 2008

They are actually different, with 9x12cm being slightly smaller.

However, the standard DDS film holders for 4x5" and 9x12cm have the same external dimensions. I use both 4x5" and 9x12cm holders in my MPP Microtechnical camera. I also have an old plate camera that takes 9x12cm film, but these holders are different.

lomomagix · Nov 15, 2008

Oh, okay, that makes sense.

I just don't see any 9x12 film for sale. (Is it possible that some users just cut up 4x5 film?)

Poohblah · Nov 15, 2008

that would be a waste of film, seeing as how nobody would ever use the strips that you would cut off. there's no point in doing that unless you have a dedicated 9x12 camera.

Bob-D659 · Nov 15, 2008

Freestyle Photo have one.

k_jupiter · Nov 15, 2008

lomomagix said:
Oh, okay, that makes sense.

I just don't see any 9x12 film for sale. (Is it possible that some users just cut up 4x5 film?)

As posted, you'll find one or two types in this country, but... set up your supply lines with Europe and you'll have many emulsions available to you. I have only single sided 9x12 cameras and have converted them to 3.25x4.25 spring backs.

tim in san jose

edtbjon · Nov 16, 2008

Yes, the modern(ish) film holders for 9x12cm and 4x5" are the same outer size. (These outer sizes are internationalized, at least since about the early fifties or so. This means that 9x12cm and 4x5", 13x18cm and 5x7", 18x24cm and 8x10" respectively all have the same DDS holder outer measurement. It's just the film size that differs slightly.)
The cm sizes is/was the common european norm, while the inch cut film was the norm in the US (and more common in the UK). Nowadays, it's even quite hard to find cm cut film in Europe as the inch cut films are more common.
So, if you are looking at any camera with an "international" back, i.e. any view camera from the fifties or later, it should take standard size film holders.

About 9x12 film in the US, Freestyle sells one film (Efke PL100), but there should be other retailers available. If you look at e.g. Fotoimpex.de you can see what is available in Europe. They will also ship to the US for a cost of €20. (If you really need film in 9x12 size that is.)

//Björn

Michal Kolosowski · Nov 16, 2008

!H
Foma makes films in 9x12 format and, at least here in Poland, they are really cheap. Fomapan 100 costs almost 50% less than its 4x5 version and AFAIK around 4-5 times less than FP4+.

Linhof's 9x12 film holders work just fine with my 4x5 Shen-Hao camera.

Ian Grant · Nov 16, 2008

All modern universal type/fit 5x4 cameras also take modern 9x12 film holders. There's plenty of 9x12 film in Europe as that was the Standard except for in the UK. So Ilford, Foma, EFKE (Adox) are easy to find.

Ian

Anastigmatic · Nov 17, 2008

lomomagix said:
Oh, okay, that makes sense.

I just don't see any 9x12 film for sale. (Is it possible that some users just cut up 4x5 film?)

yes...thats exactly what people often do for 9x12(if thats what they need). its not difficult if you set up a cutting jig. it does waste a little bit but if you think of it as costing what 4x5 does then it doesn't matter...

it is easier not to have to cut obviously but if you want different emulsions you have to. there are a couple of types of b/w readily available Foma and Adox/EKFE, i would be happy to hear of others.

set up your supply lines with Europe and you'll have many emulsions available to you

can you direct us to a place to start Tim? I hear this often but never actualy hear where from exactly! Europe a big place i dont know of any other emulsions available in 9x12 but would welcome any contact details or web links?

There's plenty of 9x12 film in Europe as that was the Standard except for in the UK. So Ilford, Foma, EFKE (Adox) are easy to find.

same again, plenty!? can you provide a link to Ilford 9x12? i havnt seen it for some time.

Ole · Nov 17, 2008

Try here: http://www.nordfoto.de/cgi-bin/nfvshop/iboshop.cgi?show5000,739327734381391

Delta 100, HP5+ and FP4+ in both 4x5" and 9x12cm.

Anastigmatic · Nov 17, 2008

Ah excellent thanks heaps Ole

Ian Grant · Nov 17, 2008

Or this APUG sponsor Fomafoto in Ole's country

Very helpful & speaks/writes good English, fast despatch and excellent prices.

Ian

2F/2F · Nov 17, 2008

lomomagix said:
I've seen a view camera advertised with both 4x5 and 9x12 in the title. Are both sizes one and the same (with 9x12 being just a metric equivalent)? Or are they different but both sizes of film could be used in one camera using different backs that could fit in the same camera? :confused:

Hello,

The films are different sizes, but the holders are the same size externally, so any "modern" camera can take both. You just have to make sure you are composing for the right format on the ground glass. If you accidentally compose for 9x12 when shooting 4x5, you will be OK, but not the other way around. The ground glass on my Sinar is for 4x5, but it has 9x12 frame lines printed for this purpose, as well as other frame lines for medium format roll film holders. When I first got my old Graphic View II, the glass had been spraypainted to have 9x12 framelines. All I had to do was clean off the paint with acetone, and it was back to being a 4x5 ground glass.

9x12 cm film is actually more similar to 3.25x4.25 in. film in terms of aspect ratio, which you might like some times and dislike at others.

If it was significantly cheaper, and I already had the holders, I would probably shoot 9x12 over 4x5 whenever possible, as I often compose 4x5 with the intent to crop to a looser aspect ratio. As it is, however, all of my holders are 4x5, and I can literally walk to get whatever 4x5 film I need.

Anastigmatic · Nov 17, 2008

Yeah, i have the Foma site bookmarked, its good vaule i think. obviously doesnt have the ilford though.

if i am reading the nordfoto site (that Ole gave) correctly 25 sheets of 9x12 Ilford. is approx 35-40 EUR, that seems on the very expensive side to me!? not sure what you guys are used to paying though?

Ole · Nov 17, 2008

Nordfoto is not cheap. But they are very reliable, and very fast, and always have whatever I want in stock - like 13x18cm Kodak E100G and 9x12cm FP4+.

Ian Grant · Nov 17, 2008

You could also try Fotoimpex in Berlin they are better value.

Ian

Anastigmatic · Nov 17, 2008

I recognised that site once i clicked the link, i have that one boomarked also, but i have not had any luck in the past navigating around or finding anything...i think once i opened their pdf and couldnt make head or tail so i gave up

so i tried a little more this time, i still couldnt find any Ilford? is that what you were refering to for better vaule? i did stumble across some 9x12 Kodak Porta 160 NC which is interesting! approx 30EUR for 10 sheets. not sure if its available or not though as there is a circle with a cross through it. i use more b/w though

it would be too much to wish for that one place would have all (i like 8.5"x6.5" as well), so i could save on shipping, and spoke english too hehe

Ian Grant · Nov 17, 2008

9x12 FP4+ is on Page 15 of their English catalogue, with no price, however in the 11/2008 new German catalogue there's a link to a Webshop which isn't complete, but again this time on Page 13 is FP4 • 9x12/25's IF491 28,00 Euro 33,32 Euro, the price is Euro first no tax, then with VAT. (No VAT if ordering from outside the EU). Also HP5 but no 9x12 Tmax 100/400 or Tri-X.

Fotoimpex's prices for Ilford are standard, the FP4 5x4 matches UK Silverprint prices, the 9x12 may be special order hence it being slightly more expensive.

Ian

Ole · Nov 17, 2008

Checking the latest FotoImpex price list, there isn't all that much difference between them and NordFoto. Since shipping is a considerable cost (for me), I prefer to order from someone who has ALL the films I use so I can order larger batches. So taking everything into account, NordFoto is cheaper for me!

Are 4x5 and 9x12 one and the same?

lomomagix

Poohblah

lomomagix

P C Headland

lomomagix

Poohblah

Bob-D659

k_jupiter

edtbjon

Michal Kolosowski

Ian Grant

Anastigmatic

Ole

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Anastigmatic

Ian Grant

2F/2F

Anastigmatic

Ole

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Ian Grant

Anastigmatic

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Ole

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Are 4x5 and 9x12 one and the same?

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