B&W Reversal with Hydrogen Peroxide

relistan · Dec 14, 2020

I didn't have any time today to make any progress, but here's a better photo of the last strip I posted. You can see some mottling for sure. I will need to play around with that a bit before I put any photos in there. I will also next run a clean, undamaged piece of film, which should give clearer results.

Alessandro Serrao · Dec 16, 2020

relistan said:
I didn't have any time today to make any progress, but here's a better photo of the last strip I posted. You can see some mottling for sure. I will need to play around with that a bit before I put any photos in there. I will also next run a clean, undamaged piece of film, which should give clearer results.

View attachment 261595

Can you bleach the leader using only permanganic acid instead?

relistan · Dec 17, 2020

Did some short testing last night and there is definitely a ratio of vinegar to stain remover that is the right target. Too much vinegar wrecks the bleaching. I was able to get bleach time down to 8 minutes by using 55ml of vinegar and 3x the stain remover. You have to add the vinegar right after mixing the stain remover.

The good news is that this strength seems to wholly clear film and leave no large spots. There is a faint gold color to the base but you can't see it in direct viewing, you need an oblique angle. I tried leaders from Fomapan 400, Agfapan APX 100 (original), and ORWO N75. All worked. This weekend I'll try a short bit of film with images.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 17, 2020

relistan said:
I was able to get bleach time down to 8 minutes by using 55ml of vinegar and 3x the stain remover.

Are you doing this processing at ~50C as before? Would be nice if the temperature can be lowered to < 30C.

relistan · Dec 17, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Are you doing this processing at ~50C as before? Would be nice if the temperature can be lowered to < 30C.

Yeah still at 50C. I tried lower temperature but even leaving overnight (ridiculous time for actual use) did not fully bleach. I will continue to try to get it down lower.

I have done a good bit of reading now and I think that the actual primary bleaching agent here may in fact be peracetic acid. I think the temperature may be required to cause the reaction. Otherwise I think the acetic acid may just react with the carbonate. But if it starts hot, once it has formed maybe you could lower the temperature afterward. It does seem to need to actually be bubbling to work though.

relistan · Dec 18, 2020

Without a proper light table it's pretty hard to get good photos. But here's the piece of film I was talking about in the last post. This is ORWO N75, hence the cine sprocket holes. It's impossible to get the white balance where you can see the faint gold color. It basically looks like a clear piece of film. Without scanning it I am not yet sure what the surface looks like.

relistan · Dec 19, 2020

Well I tried a roll of about 6 frames. There is some kind of rehalogenation happening and the film came out mostly black, despite having fully bleached. I coud see a faint positive after reexposure. Guessing there is chloride in there in an amount enough to screw it up. It's not on the MSDS.

Will try the hydrogen peroxide next. I have both vinegar and citric acid so I should be able to compare eventually.

EDIT: the images are there, and they are positives. But I think the theory above still holds. @Raghu Kuvempunagar had suggested this might be an issue earlier in the thread

relistan · Dec 19, 2020

Success! Waiting for the film to dry down so I can scan and post photos. There is no brown staining that I can see.

I successfully reversed Fomapan 400 following the technique described in the video I first posted but not with HC-110.

First developer: Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+9 — 12 mins
Wash
Bleach (in daylight): 300ml 3% hydrogen peroxide, 21ml distilled malt vinegar at 40C — 10 mins
Wash
Second Exposure: handheld in front of halogen light — 1 min
Second developer: Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+9 — 6 mins
Wash
Fix: Ilford Rapid Fixer — 3 mins
Wash

I do have sodium thiosulphate so will experiment with adding that to the first developer next time. Additionally, I am pretty sure 12 minutes in Ilford Multigrade is way more than needed in first dev. I may try to halve that and see. I know that fixing is not strictly necessary but wanted to validate that it didn't change the images at all.

Alessandro Serrao · Dec 20, 2020

relistan said:
Success! Waiting for the film to dry down so I can scan and post photos. There is no brown staining that I can see.

I successfully reversed Fomapan 400 following the technique described in the video I first posted but not with HC-110.

First developer: Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+9 — 12 mins

Wash

Bleach (in daylight): 300ml 3% hydrogen peroxide, 21ml distilled malt vinegar at 40C — 10 mins

Wash

Second Exposure: handheld in front of halogen light — 1 min

Second developer: Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+9 — 6 mins

Wash

Fix: Ilford Rapid Fixer — 3 mins

Wash

I do have sodium thiosulphate so will experiment with adding that to the first developer next time. Additionally, I am pretty sure 12 minutes in Ilford Multigrade is way more than needed in first dev. I may try to halve that and see. I know that fixing is not strictly necessary but wanted to validate that it didn't change the images at all.

With this process, have you experienced any chances of emulsion damage?

relistan · Dec 20, 2020

Looks like I may just be talking to myself at this point, but here are the results. Not a great photo, but this was a test! These the first two images are from the scanner, in grayscale mode. To show the neutral gray of the reversal, the 3rd picture is a photo of the slides on a makeshift light table. I think they are a little dark in general, which implies that an experiment with thiosulphate in the first developer is a good idea.

I normally shoot this old Fomapan 400 at EI200 and it looks like in this process it's about right at EI200 (+1). This was not a brightly lit scene. It looks like EI400 is still pretty reasonable. The film is grainy and the Ilford Multigrade Developer does not reduce the grain! But I am pretty darn happy with how it came out. There is no emulsion damage that I can spot in detailed scans. This film is 10 year old bulk rolled Fomapan 400. I think something isn't right with the EI1600 exposure, but it's kind of irrelevant.

Here's a detailed scan of the +1 exposure (click the thumbnail):

Finally, this is the photo from my iPhone of them on the IKEA lid/light table:

relistan · Dec 20, 2020

Thanks to @Raghu Kuvempunagar @Donald Qualls and @YoIaMoNwater for assistance. I will continue to experiment with this stuff and see if I can brighten up the final slides. In front of a light they already look great, but I think they are a bit dark. I'll also order some percarbonate to see if I can get that working in a process at 40C like the peroxide.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 20, 2020

relistan said:
Thanks to I will continue to experiment with this stuff and see if I can brighten up the final slides. In front of a light they already look great, but I think they are a bit dark. I'll also order some percarbonate to see if I can get that working in a process at 40C like the peroxide.

This is a very encouraging result for a first attempt. If I were you I would be very pleased that there was no vesiculation and emulsion lifting at 40C with peroxide bleach. The noticeable coarse grain is also interesting. If somebody wants grain in slides, maybe this is the right choice of film.

Good luck with your impending percarbonate experiments and do keep us posted on your results.

relistan · Dec 20, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
This is a very encouraging result for a first attempt. If I were you I would be very pleased that there was no vesiculation and emulsion lifting at 40C with peroxide bleach. The noticeable coarse grain is also interesting. If somebody wants grain in slides, maybe this is the right choice of film.

Good luck with your impending percarbonate experiments and do keep us posted on your results.

Thanks, Raghu! I am very pleased with the outcome. The grain is indeed pretty interesting. I don't love this film, and generally use it for experimenting. Once I've kind of dialed in a process I'll use some Silvermax/Scala or Fomapan R100 (I have both). Fomapan 100 in 120 format would also be pretty nice since it's on a clear base.

I read in another thread that the Sepia toning step at DR5 is at 60C based on the video David had posted of his machine in operation. I also read that the Scala process runs at least some steps at 38C so I think 40C is reasonably safe. Maybe some films don't handle it but if there were one to not handle it, it would probably be Fomapan 400. I guess I'll find out.

relistan · Dec 23, 2020

Did some more testing with the peroxide/vinegar and I've got it down now! This works pretty awesomely and the images look great. No clearing bath necessary because there is no staining. Improvements to the process:

1. First developer is Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+5 (2nd is still 1+9) — 12 mins
2. Way longer second exposure after realizing the film leader was darker than the re-exposed portion
3. 33C Bleaching seems to work, at least with freshly mixed bleach — 10 mins

I tried using some sodium thiosulphate in the first developer but even a small amount (4g/L) left me with nearly blank film. I am not sure it's necessary for this particular film, but will do some better desnity measurements once I can scan these. I don't have a densitometer, so a scanner with density measurements is as good as I can currently do.

With proper density, Fomapan 400 seems to work very well up to EI 1000(!), which is the top speed I tested. That's pretty surprising for a film that struggles to make EI 250-320 in most common developers.

Donald Qualls · Dec 23, 2020

What's your bleach mix for this? Starting with 3% peroxide, or the 9% from the beauty shop?

You're seeing what I saw with Tri-X years ago -- significant film speed gain in reversal. I had to shoot Tri-X at EI800 to keep it from being much too light in the slides. I'd still recommend a little thiosulfate in the first dev, but depending how long you develop, you may need to cut down the amount. I used 4g/L, as I recall, but I was using Dektol stock, two parts to one part of water -- much faster working developer than Multigrade at 1+5.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 23, 2020

relistan said:
Fomapan 400 seems to work very well up to EI 1000(!), which is the top speed I tested. That's pretty surprising for a film that struggles to make EI 250-320 in most common developers.

Interestingly, DR5 says Fomapan 400 is not suitable for DR5 process. One wonders why.

Donald Qualls · Dec 23, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Interestingly, DR5 says Fomapan 400 is not suitable for DR5 process. One wonders why.

Probably one of two things: gray base (in 35mm), like Tri-X and many/most other conventional films, or soft emulsion that can't stand high process temperature.

relistan · Dec 23, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
What's your bleach mix for this? Starting with 3% peroxide, or the 9% from the beauty shop?

I'm using 3% household peroxide that I acquired from the UK (about to get harder with Brexit). The beauty shops here seem to only sell peroxide as creams, which then seem to have a bunch of other stuff in there. I might try it to see, but my guess is it's a crapshoot by brand, kind of like the stain remover I was using. But maybe I don't know the right thing to look for. I tried "30 vol peroxide/developer/bleach" (each term) and only found cream. It would sure be nice to be able to just buy it in town.

Donald Qualls said:
You're seeing what I saw with Tri-X years ago -- significant film speed gain in reversal. I had to shoot Tri-X at EI800 to keep it from being much too light in the slides.

Exactly! At even EI200 it's too light. I wonder which works better in projection. I might try to find a cheap film strip projector on eBay to try it out.

Donald Qualls said:
I'd still recommend a little thiosulfate in the first dev, but depending how long you develop, you may need to cut down the amount. I used 4g/L, as I recall, but I was using Dektol stock, two parts to one part of water -- much faster working developer than Multigrade at 1+5.

Thanks, this is a good suggestion. It may be with that concentration and at 12 minutes of development this film can't handle any amount of thiosulphate. Ilford's recommendations for their films go as high as 12g/L! Old Kodak D-67 intended for Panatomic-X reversal seems to include 1.5g/L. I may try mixing up some D-67 at some point as well.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Interestingly, DR5 says Fomapan 400 is not suitable for DR5 process. One wonders why.

David appears to run part of his process at 60C according to a video I saw of his machine in action so that may be a deal killer for some films. It may *also* be Fomapan's response to thiosulphate in the developer like I experienced where even a small amount is too much. This film definitely bleaches more easily than the ORWO N75 I tried, as well, so maybe that has some effect on his process.

Also, this film makes some grainy slides! Maybe that's a reason.

relistan · Dec 23, 2020

This is a scan of all 5 images that I shot with this film (I did a couple of scenes, but just posting this one). They are scanned together so that the contrast and brightness are equal.

400 or 800 are about right here IMO.

Donald Qualls · Dec 23, 2020

If 3% peroxide works, there's no reason to spend money on stronger -- or deal with higher hazard level of handling it. I can get 3% at the local grocery for US$0.89 per liter. I've got a bottle of 75% strength acetic that I bought for making stop bath (and then promptly found my old bottle of Indicator Stop Bath concentrate, as well as a still-good jug of working solution). Sounds like time to shoot a roll or two of some B&W film or other and try this again -- I didn't stay interested in it originally because of the dichromate and battery acid.

Can you write up your exact process -- dilutions, times, and temperature for each step? So we have it documented for future searches?

removed account4 · Dec 23, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Can you write up your exact process -- dilutions, times, and temperature for each step? So we have it documented for future searches?

+1. !

thanks for your hard work!

flavio81 · Dec 23, 2020

relistan said:
Success! Waiting for the film to dry down so I can scan and post photos. There is no brown staining that I can see.

I successfully reversed Fomapan 400 following the technique described in the video I first posted but not with HC-110.

First developer: Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+9 — 12 mins

Wash

Bleach (in daylight): 300ml 3% hydrogen peroxide, 21ml distilled malt vinegar at 40C — 10 mins

Wash

Second Exposure: handheld in front of halogen light — 1 min

Second developer: Ilford Multigrade Developer 1+9 — 6 mins

Wash

Fix: Ilford Rapid Fixer — 3 mins

Wash

I do have sodium thiosulphate so will experiment with adding that to the first developer next time. Additionally, I am pretty sure 12 minutes in Ilford Multigrade is way more than needed in first dev. I may try to halve that and see. I know that fixing is not strictly necessary but wanted to validate that it didn't change the images at all.

Many thanks for your experiments, these are really exciting.

I just have some questions to better understand the options:

1. Would more quantities vinegar spoil the process?

2. Are you sure you want the bleach to happen under daylight? Don't you run the risk of solarizing the film?

3. I understand that the second development could be done under light too, are you developing by inspection? Supposedly the development should be done to completion in this phase.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 23, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Probably one of two things: gray base (in 35mm), like Tri-X and many/most other conventional films, or soft emulsion that can't stand high process temperature.

He does Tri-X though.

relistan said:
David appears to run part of his process at 60C according to a video I saw of his machine in action so that may be a deal killer for some films. It may *also* be Fomapan's response to thiosulphate in the developer like I experienced where even a small amount is too much. This film definitely bleaches more easily than the ORWO N75 I tried, as well, so maybe that has some effect on his process.

Also, this film makes some grainy slides! Maybe that's a reason.

As far as halide solvents in first developer are concerned, if IIRC David has in this forum itself said that his process doesn't use them.

The part of DR5 process that runs at 60C is for sepia toning of the slides, DEV-2 in DR5 terminology. Rest of the process runs at 20-25C IIRC. Yet they don't offer neutral B&W slide processing, DEV-1, of Fomapan films.

May be it's the DMax which is not astronomically high for these films ;-P We will come to know soon as David has announced that DR5 process will be made public in the upcoming year.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Dec 24, 2020

relistan said:
This is a scan of all 5 images that I shot with this film (I did a couple of scenes, but just posting this one). They are scanned together so that the contrast and brightness are equal.

400 or 800 are about right here IMO.

I think the ideal EI is between 200-400 for this film and if one goes higher than that slides look darker but with corresponding loss in shadow details. If at this EI you're getting light slides, then you're probably overdeveloping and/or fog is too high.

It's not the case that the film becomes more sensitive to light in reversal processing. A high contrast first developer might be able to tease out a bit of shadow details from the toe but it usually is accompanied by a corresponding increase in the fog level. It is the high contrast index of slides that gives credence to claims on speed gain though uprated slides typically loose shadow details.

To find out the EI of a film for reversal processing, a sensitometry study like what @iandvag did for Ilford Delta 100 is required. In the absence of it, a simple test would be something like this: shoot a uniformly lit textured white surface at -2, i.e. by placing it in Zone 3, for each of the proposed speed, say 200, 250, 320, 400, 500, 800, 1000 in the case of Fomapan 400. The highest speed which shows full textural detail in the corresponding slide is the one to be used as EI. Anything higher than this speed may give "acceptable" slides but with loss of shadow details.

jnantz said:
thanks for your hard work!

+1

relistan · Dec 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
If 3% peroxide works, there's no reason to spend money on stronger -- or deal with higher hazard level of handling it.

Well my thinking was twofold:

1. I have to order 3% online (currently from the UK... but Brexit) because I can't get it at the pharmacy in an amount more than 150ml. So being able to dilute down 9% that I can buy in town would be nice.
2. I am still hoping there is a way to run it at room temperature and since the paper reversal experiments in 9% seem to run at room temp, I thought maybe this would also.

But, I agree, working with 3% is easy and not dangerous at all. Very little risk of bleaching your clothes as well.

Donald Qualls said:
I can get 3% at the local grocery for US$0.89 per liter.

Yes! So much easier in the US.

Donald Qualls said:
I've got a bottle of 75% strength acetic that I bought for making stop bath (and then promptly found my old bottle of Indicator Stop Bath concentrate, as well as a still-good jug of working solution). Sounds like time to shoot a roll or two of some B&W film or other and try this again -- I didn't stay interested in it originally because of the dichromate and battery acid.

That acetic acid will mean you can easily experiment with more or less dilution without also adding a bunch of water like I would by adding more vinegar.

Donald Qualls said:
Can you write up your exact process -- dilutions, times, and temperature for each step? So we have it documented for future searches?

Yes, I will! Shortly.

flavio81 said:
1. Would more quantities vinegar spoil the process?

I experimented with this a bit while testing out percarbonate bleach. I have not yet adjusted this variable much with the peroxide. This remains to be established!

flavio81 said:
2. Are you sure you want the bleach to happen under daylight? Don't you run the risk of solarizing the film?

When I say daylight I simply mean diffused window light/room light. You don't want direct sunlight. Bleaching in the light allows you to do it by inspection and that's pretty useful.

flavio81 said:
3. I understand that the second development could be done under light too, are you developing by inspection? Supposedly the development should be done to completion in this phase.

You need to fully stop the first developer and then from that point on you can do everything in the light without issue. Yes, the second developer needs to run to completion, so there's no advantage to developing in the light. It's more convenient for me to put the film back in the canister at this point and develop as normal.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
As far as halide solvents in first developer are concerned, if IIRC David has in this forum itself said that his process doesn't use them.

Good data point!

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
I think the ideal EI is between 200-400 for this film and if one goes higher than that slides look darker but with corresponding loss in shadow details. If at this EI you're getting light slides, then you're probably overdeveloping and/or fog is too high.

It's probably worth experimenting with the first developer time. I can say that at EI 400 it looks very good, very good shadow detail. When I shoot as a negative I have to use EI 200, and by EI 800 it's a disaster. So the developer is definitely picking out more in the toe than XTOL stock.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
It's not the case that the film becomes more sensitive to light in reversal processing. A high contrast first developer might be able to tease out a bit of shadow details from the toe but it usually is accompanied by a corresponding increase in the fog level. It is the high contrast index of slides that gives credence to claims on speed gain though uprated slides typically loose shadow details.

Well sure, I'm not claiming the film is more light sensitive. But Foma's own datasheets show that the EI of the film varies widely in different developers. Given the other scenes I shot, I'm going to use EI 400 and see how it goes.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
To find out the EI of a film for reversal processing, a sensitometry study like what @iandvag did for Ilford Delta 100 is required. In the absence of it, a simple test would be something like this: shoot a uniformly lit textured white surface at -2, i.e. by placing it in Zone 3, for each of the proposed speed, say 200, 250, 320, 400, 500, 800, 1000 in the case of Fomapan 400. The highest speed which shows full textural detail in the corresponding slide is the one to be used as EI. Anything higher than this speed may give "acceptable" slides but with loss of shadow details.

Very good info. I don't have a densitometer (yet!) so I can't do anything like the detail that @iandvaag did. But I will try to find some time over the holidays to attempt this test with a film that I actually like. Fomapan 400 is just my experimenting film because I accidentally bought 100 feet back when Arista Premium (Tri-X) was available and I ordered the wrong thing. I have about 10 rolls left. If I do an extensive test it will be on Silvermax 100/Scala 160 since I have 200 feet of it.

Thanks all for your support!

B&W Reversal with Hydrogen Peroxide

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