Bergger the company

CMoore · Sep 17, 2019

I looked at their "Home Page"
I guess they are a French company that has been around for quite some time.

I did a search on APUG, but that (naturally) brought up discussion about specific products.
Any of you guys familiar with the history of this firm, or want to discuss anything about them or their products.?
Especially where Europe is concerned, i am always interested in what happened to a Company/Products during and right after WW2.

So.....who is Bergger and why do we not Hear/Read more about their products.?
Thank You

AgX · Sep 17, 2019

It is a company, but no manufacturer in the true sense.

They are a brand, Bergger, and they either take materials out of the range of the true manufacturers or have products tollmanufactured.

They refer to a history of more than 100 year which is completey enigmatic. The claim to be the heiress of the small french photochemical manufacturer which actually was founded about 160 years ago, but collapsed in the mid 90s.

The same time the current Bergger company was founded, by a former engineer of that gone under manufacturer, but rather unheard of, until former Apug fellow Aurelien took over the management.

Their history is as whacky as the pretention of current Adox also to be 160 years old.

Dali · Sep 17, 2019

Yes, I think they make reference to Guilleminot, a mid-19th century old company. Guilleminot was active until the 80s and then collapsed.

AgX · Sep 17, 2019

No, they collapsed in 1995.

AgX · Sep 17, 2019

Aurelien left Apug, his account seems dead, he returned as Bergger but again went inactive.

CMoore · Sep 17, 2019

Interesting.....OK.
Thank You All

miha · Sep 17, 2019

AgX said:
No, they collapsed in 1995.

To my knowledge in 1994.

AgX · Sep 17, 2019

It happened in the last days of 94, dissolved in spring of 95.

miha · Sep 17, 2019

So the new company was formed right away.

wyofilm · Sep 17, 2019

Ok, can we go a bit further, because they are interesting in that they outsource (according to the above) the manufacture of pretty interesting and quality products. I used their Berrger Pancro 400 film a bit when I was looking at 400 iso sheet film. Quality was very good. I have also used their cot 320 paper a bit. I'm interested in their print film coming out. All in all, they are an active and worthwhile photography company. Are they profitable? They must have some pretty good people in the company.

Paul Howell · Sep 17, 2019

I think Berrger designs their own emulsions then outsources the coating, Harmond? If Harmond does their coating then quality control is going to be good.

Henning Serger · Sep 17, 2019

Paul Howell said:
I think Berrger designs their own emulsions then outsources the coating, Harmond?

Paul, that is wrong. They cannot design anything by themselves. They neither have the knowledge nor the capacity for R&D. Bergger is a pure, tiny brand and distribution company.
One owner is biologist (I know him very well), the other economist. None of them can design emulsions.
Their papers have been designed and are produced by Harman technology / Ilford Photo.
Their films have been designed and are produced by InovisCoat in Germany (I've been there, too).
Their chemistry is also mainly made by German manufacturers, e.g. Moersch.

Best regards,
Henning

BradS · Sep 17, 2019

All competent manufacturers. Sounds like good stuff.

Sal Santamaura · Sep 17, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Paul, that is wrong. They cannot design anything by themselves. They neither have the knowledge nor the capacity for R&D. Bergger is a pure, tiny brand and distribution company.
One owner is biologist (I know him very well), the other economist. None of them can design emulsions.
Their papers have been designed and are produced by Harman technology / Ilford Photo.
Their films have been designed and are produced by InovisCoat in Germany (I've been there, too).
Their chemistry is also mainly made by German manufacturers, e.g. Moersch.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning, how dare you impede marketing/mythology by promulgating facts/truth?

wyofilm · Sep 17, 2019

An interesting model, especially since they sell quality products. Definitely not reselling junk products.

MattKing · Sep 17, 2019

wyofilm said:
An interesting model, especially since they sell quality products. Definitely not reselling junk products.

Unlike Apple?

CMoore · Sep 17, 2019

BradS said:
All competent manufacturers. Sounds like good stuff.

wyofilm said:
An interesting model, especially since they sell quality products. Definitely not reselling junk products.

As you two suggest, they are selling a quality product.
I know nothing about them.....i am just a hack "Street Photographer".
I use Ilford chemistry and film, and mostly Ultrafine Paper.

So, am i safe to assume that Bregger is having products made that are Unique/Niche/Special when compared to other products that are available for film photographers.?
Is that why they are "Solvent" in these days of digital photography.?

BradS · Sep 17, 2019

CMoore said:
As you two suggest, they are selling a quality product.
......
So, am i safe to assume that Bergger is having products made that are Unique/Niche/Special when compared to other products that are available for film photographers.?
Is that why they are "Solvent" in these days of digital photography.?

My personal *opinion* is that Bergger do a very good job of marketing quality products that may or may not in reality be unique or special.

I’ll note also that there was a time when some of their products were less expensive than comparable products from more broadly recognized manufacturers. Whether or not that is still the case, I do not know.

Ian Grant · Sep 18, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Paul, that is wrong. They cannot design anything by themselves. They neither have the knowledge nor the capacity for R&D. Bergger is a pure, tiny brand and distribution company.
One owner is biologist (I know him very well), the other economist. None of them can design emulsions.
Their papers have been designed and are produced by Harman technology / Ilford Photo.
Their films have been designed and are produced by InovisCoat in Germany (I've been there, too).
Their chemistry is also mainly made by German manufacturers, e.g. Moersch.

Best regards,
Henning

You're right but in terms of the past wrong. Bergger as it exists today has no practical knowledge or manufacturing experience, they may have access to the Guilleminot archives etc.

However Bergger was founded by Guy Gerard CEO and Daniel Bouche on the business siderGuy Gerard had worked as a chemical engineer at Guleminot for 30 years and was able to use his expertise work with Forte to have the Bergger range of B&W films and particularly papers made for them. He retired in 2014 after around 50 years in the industry he was replaced as CEO by Aurélien Le Duc once an active member here.

Ian

Henning Serger · Sep 18, 2019

Ian Grant said:
You're right but in terms of the past wrong. Bergger as it exists today has no practical knowledge or manufacturing experience, they may have access to the Guilleminot archives etc.

Hello Ian,
that maybe a point in theory, but it has no current practical relevance. Because none of the current Bergger products are former / older formulas. It wouldn't work. From all of my factory visits in film / paper factories I can ensure you that to make a quality product the formula / design of the product must be specifically designed to the emulsion making and coating facility on which the product then will be produced. You cannot simply take an old formula / recipe from dismantled factory "X" and then produce the same product without design changes on current production facilities of factory "Y".
Film and photo paper production is extremely complicated.

Best regards,
Henning

wyofilm · Sep 18, 2019

Henning,

Do you imagine Berrger went to Harmon/Ilford and said "Let's see what you guys have that you aren't making and we will market it." Maybe. Otherwise, how did Berrger obtain film to sell?

AgX · Sep 18, 2019

You may apply these questions on all cases of toll-manufacturing, or rebranding.

Cases vary, most different aspects may come together, but of course in all these cases the actual manufacturer found it more profitable than "doing it themselves".

To give just some reasons:
The market the product is aimed at is hardly accessible for the manufacturer.
The manufacture sees the involved risks too high.
The manufacturrer is lacking the funding and sees the immediate profit larger than the lost revenue share.
There maybe IP issues involved.
and so on...

wyofilm · Sep 18, 2019

Usually when party A hires party B to outsource the manufacture of something (toll-manufacturing?), party A knows and specifies exactly what they want. Perhaps with some input from party B. Rebranding as I understand it is Party A slaps a new label on something party B already sells. Maybe with a slight modification. For example, Leica sells a rebranded instax camera.

Ilford doesn't sell any film product like Pancro 400, so rebranding is out. Mr. Serger indicates that no one at Bergger has the knowledge to contract the manufacture of a specific film design.

With those two avenues eliminated, I can only guess that Pancro 400 is an Ilford design that was never marketed by them. This would also apply to Bergger's new print film, too.

twelvetone12 · Sep 18, 2019

But aren't all the films made by InovisCoat and not Harman/Ilford? From what I know of InovisCoat, they can also design film material for you.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 18, 2019

twelvetone12 said:
But aren't all the films made by InovisCoat and not Harman/Ilford? From what I know of InovisCoat, they can also design film material for you.

That is my understanding. Bergger Pancro 400 is not HP5 Plus as the poster above mentions. - actually I suspect the Bergger emulsion is best treated as a '200' speed option, given the recommendation of Microphen-a-like developer Berspeed as standard.

Bergger the company

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