C41 PDTA Bleach Recipe

OP
OP

yoso20

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2022
Messages
8
Location
usa
Format
Med. Format RF

Ah I see.

For the first recipe, can you confirm this is the correct CAS#?

PDTA - 1939-36-2
2,4-Dihydroxybenzophenone - 131-56-6
 
OP
OP

yoso20

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2022
Messages
8
Location
usa
Format
Med. Format RF
Yes


I don't see this in any of the formulae. Which one are you referring to?
I understand this compound is used as a UV filter with a cutoff at 398nm. I don't really see how it would be used in a C41 developer.

1.) Kodak Bleach III for C-41 RA process. This is a very concentrated and fast acting version (RA means rapid action) and was published in the patent US6649331:

PDTA 113.6g
2,4-Dihydroxybenzophenon 0.95g
Acetic Acid 80% 64.4 ml
NH4Br 94.67 g
Fe(NO3)3 * 9 H2O 136.93
 

koraks

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
Messages
20,513
Location
Europe
Format
Multi Format
I see it now; thanks. when you referred to the 'first formula' I thought you meant the first formula posted in this thread. It is actually the first formula posted by Rudeofus in post #4.
 

Rudeofus

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
5,045
Location
EU
Format
Medium Format
I don't see this in any of the formulae. Which one are you referring to?
I understand this compound is used as a UV filter with a cutoff at 398nm. I don't really see how it would be used in a C41 developer.

This is about bleach, not color developer, although it may have something to do with color developer after all.

You may remember the ancient discussions of Microdol vs. Microdol-X, in which the latter one contained some "anti staining compound" to avoid the dichroic fogging problem. Decades of guessing and conjecture ensued, two Kodak patents for such "anti staining compounds" were discovered, one of them Benzophenone, the other one 4-Chloro-Resorcinol. At some point the community settled with "4-Chloro-Resorcinol", and I vaguely remember PE being behind this info.

What I do know is the following: In old times Metol contained a PPD impurity, and PPD without a secondary developer is liable to produce dichroic fog. A decent coupler would quickly scavenge oxidized PPD and thereby avoid the issue. 4-Chloro-Resorcinol is one such coupler, and it yields a well soluble product with oxidized PPD, so this may have well been the reason behind its inclusion in Microdol-X. Note, that this paragraph is my conjecture and not backed up by any credible info.

To come back to the Benzophenone, this was the other compound patented by Kodak to address the dichroic fog problem of Microdol. If it works the same way, then it would scavenge carry over color developer, which would otherwise quickly be oxidized by the ferric PDTA and could potentially stain the film. So this compound could be there for this reason. Again, all amateur level conjecture, no real info from Kodak or real chemists.

I have never seen staining effects with my own ferric PDTA bleach, but compared to what Kodak has seen I have seen pretty much nothing. They surely didn't add this compound just for fun, but the cases where it is really needed may be rare or extreme or both. If you indeed have this kind of staining (some people reported it here when going from C-41 CD directly to Tetenal's BLIX), then a stop and brief wash between CD and bleach is just as effective and likely much cheaper than this Benzophenone compound could ever be.
 

roundcloud

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
35
Format
35mm

Is it possible that Kodak uses PDTA, ammonia, and iron nitrate, but the MSDS indicates Ammonium Ferric PDTA because reverse testing is not possible.
 

halfaman

Subscriber
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
1,338
Location
Bilbao
Format
Multi Format
Is it possible that Kodak uses PDTA, ammonia, and iron nitrate, but the MSDS indicates Ammonium Ferric PDTA because reverse testing is not possible.

Better to use the past tense like Rudeofus, Eastman Kodak doesn't manufacture photochemicals since very long time ago. Companies like defunct Tetenal or current Photo System purchase ingredients and mix them according to a recipe. Synthesis is done by chemical companies normally in Far East plants.
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
51,841
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format

Rudeofus

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
5,045
Location
EU
Format
Medium Format
Is it possible that Kodak uses PDTA, ammonia, and iron nitrate, but the MSDS indicates Ammonium Ferric PDTA because reverse testing is not possible.

Many years ago, and my memory may be weak on that, PE told me that Kodak used pressurized vats of water, Ferric Oxide/Hydroxide, EDTA/PDTA and Ammonia to make Ammonium Ferric EDTA/PDTA. They thought like chemists and always created pure single compounds and then products from those. I remember once suggesting, that one could put excess sulfite into the HQ+H2O2 mix to make HQMS plus some sulfite, which is needed in E-6 FD anyways, and he was almost angry at the suggestion.
 

roundcloud

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2014
Messages
35
Format
35mm

ok,thks!
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…