Color Starting Points/Correction Tips for Beseler Dual Dichro S

[ac123]

I've been printing RA4 for some time using my Beseler Dual Dichro S (23c II), though lately have been feeling frustrated at the amount of test prints I've been going through before reaching a neutral or usable color cast.


In the manual for the dual dichro, it states the starting point as 50m 90y, which seems uncommon (?) I have mostly seen the starting point listed online for other enlargers around 50y 50m, or else where the 2 numbers closely match. I am wondering if this starting point dissonance is causing more extreme value differences in color correcting.

It seems also unusual that I need to move the dials in increments of 10 or more to really see any noticeable difference on the print. On other forums/other enlargers, I've seen users comment about changing the dials in smaller increments like 3-10 up or down and it makes a significant difference in tone. For me, a change like that would be very subtle, and almost unnoticeable if there is already a heavy tone in one direction on the print.




Within my notes of "correct" prints I've made, the final color notation can vary with seemingly no consistency or relation to the starting point. A few values of "color correct" prints I've made read like:

y80 m 140
y50 m 140
y100 m130
y90 m110
y35 m110
y105 m140
y100 m190

With values that can range so fully from 1-200, it feels like I am never sure where exactly to "start" when printing a fresh negative, and to have to correct with increments of 10 or 20 feels a little heavy handed.



I understand how the Y/M combination moves around the color wheel, as below, however I'm having trouble when starting out with a negative to begin in some place of "white" "neutrality."

For example, see latest frustrating color print:

Does anyone have any experience/advice on printing on the Dual Dichro, or any tips on the fastest way to achieve a "neutral" print when printing a fresh negative? Thanks in advance.

 

[Robert Ley]

When I printed color, I used a Beseler 45 with a Beseler 45S color head. This was after using a Beseler/Minolta 45 head and a Beseler Universal Color head. I had a Fujimoto CP-51 processor so my processing was consistent and repeatable. I never in probably 15 years had an experience like you. My color head could make changes that were noticeable to me in the 1-2 cc range.
You don't mention what paper that you use or how you process it, those are important factors. I suspect that your dichroic filters in your head may be fading, other than your processing, I can't think of a reason why your filtration values would be that high.

 

[ac123]

I never in probably 15 years had an experience like you. My color head could make changes that were noticeable to me in the 1-2 cc range.
You don't mention what paper that you use or how you process it, those are important factors.

Yeah, it's been quite confusing, but also this is the only color head I've used, and been printing on for a year and a half. I suspect this is not normal adjustment range but was not sure, since the suggested starting points were already so far apart.

Printing on Fuji Crystal Archive Type II.
Processing in a drum in a JOBO temp bath (30 deg C) with 1:40 dev and 1:00 blix.


Re: fading, a quick google search gives me mixed opinions on whether it's even possible for Dichroic filters to fade or not... if not, maybe the wacky CC settings are a quirk particular to this color head?

 

[btaylor]

Those CMY settings are wayyyy out of what I would consider normal- I also find 50Y 50M generally a good starting point, and increments of 5cc are very noticeable in a print. I don’t remember what head I had that did this, but the dials moved the cc indicators but the filters themselves hardly moved because of mechanical resistance (something was stuck). I think I lubed the cams and shafts. You could be moving the dials but not having the filters move proportionally. Just a thought.

 

[koraks]

Does anyone have any experience/advice on printing on the Dual Dichro, or any tips on the fastest way to achieve a "neutral" print when printing a fresh negative?

Not specifically with this enlarger, but I'm used to working with 'weird' filter settings on my own digital light sources. The ultimate conclusion is that the numbers just don't matter. They're all relative, so don't fuss over the numbers being far off where the manual would lead you to expect them.

The fastest way I know of when working with unknown/new negative/scene lighting/paper combinations is to straddle the filtration you expect to end up at. Ideally, make four test strips:
* Far too high magenta, far too high yellow. This print will come out too green + blue = cyan.
* Far too high magenta, far too low yellow. This will come out too green + yellow = lime.
* Far too low magenta, far too low yellow. This will come out too magenta + yellow = red.
* Far too low magenta, far too high yellow. This will come out too magenta + blue = violet.
If the overall balance isn't too the side indicated (cyan, lime, red, violet), you know your filter setting isn't extreme enough on one or both channel(s). Fix that before continuing.

With a little experience, you can then pick a point that's likely much closer to the final filtration for both channels. Do one more test strip and evaluate where it lands; you can then use this as another benchmark for any further strips.

Visually, it would be something like this. The dotted bar represents the neutral point you're trying to establish. This is not necessarily smack in the middle of the extremes you happen to choose. The consecutive strips are indicated with their dominant color casts. Note that strip 5 ends up being a variant of #2, so you know you have to compensate the same way as if you had obtained the #2 strip, just a smaller adjustment.

Of course, once you've figured this out for any given roll, the rest is basically just printing off at very close filter values to be only adjusted for e.g. changes in scene lighting. Assuming you're aiming for neutral, true-to-life prints in general.

 

[ac123]

Not specifically with this enlarger, but I'm used to working with 'weird' filter settings on my own digital light sources. The ultimate conclusion is that the numbers just don't matter. They're all relative, so don't fuss over the numbers being far off where the manual would lead you to expect them.

The fastest way I know of when working with unknown/new negative/scene lighting/paper combinations is to straddle the filtration you expect to end up at. Ideally, make four test strips:
* Far too high magenta, far too high yellow. This print will come out too green + blue = cyan.
* Far too high magenta, far too low yellow. This will come out too green + yellow = lime.
* Far too low magenta, far too low yellow. This will come out too magenta + yellow = red.
* Far too low magenta, far too high yellow. This will come out too magenta + blue = violet.
If the overall balance isn't too the side indicated (cyan, lime, red, violet), you know your filter setting isn't extreme enough on one or both channel(s). Fix that before continuing.

Thanks for this Koraks, this is really helpful, will give it a go.

In regards to the numbers being relative... since the CC adjustment scale seems to be so far off from the "starting points" given for this enlarger, would you recommend using this method at extreme ends of the scale, then dialing in via 10cc at a time?

i.e. printing these:

20 Y , 180 M - too lime print
180 Y , 180 M - too cyan print
20 Y , 20 M - too red print
180 Y , 20 M - too violet print

then picking one of the 4 options, and compensating with 10-20cc adjustments?

 

[koraks]

I'd start on the extreme side and then adjust through consecutive sessions once you get a feeling for what kind of values you end up with.
In terms of adjustments, take big steps, especially at first. So if you start with a 20/180 split, then definitely adjust with something like 50CC for the first guess in-between the initial split. You're generally better off making bigger than smaller adjustments.

What really takes (wastes) time, is inching your way to the end result, and this has another drawback to boot: you tend to accommodate to the color bias, so when you come back the next day, you realize you actually didn't even get where you need to be. It's a whole lot easier to pick a good middle ground between a print that's too magenta and one that's too green, than to try to make a further step based on two prints that are both too green. Being able to see what you get if you overshoot the mark is really useful.

 

[xkaes]

I've used the Dual Dichro S years ago, and the 45 Dichro S today, and haven't noticed any difference in use. Sometimes you need a big change in filtration, sometimes not.

Do you have any viewing filters for color adjustment? That saves a lot of testing. I use the Kodak Color Viewing filters where you simply use your eye on a dried print and make the adjustment.

Beseler (Universal Color Calculator, below) and Unicolor make matrices where you make an actual print by laying the grid on a 4x5 piece of paper:

Either saves a lot of time & paper & chemicals. You can probably find either for about $10 -- in like new condition.

 

[rharter]

I have a Dual Dichro head and feel like I'm in the same situation. I've only been printing for a couple of years, so assumed it was just me (and it still might be). I don't notice much difference with small changes to the filters, and have a hard time finding a decent white point. I haven't solved it, but am following along for the great suggestions.

I recently ordered a Beseler Subtractive Calculator #8916 on ebay (the closest I could find to that Universal Color calculator), so we'll see how that helps. The "large swings" approach @koraks mentioned also sounds promising!

Thanks for posting this!