Developing Paper in Film Developer (esp. D23)?

[pareshpandit]

Hi guys,

Good day, there.

I have been developing my own BW film for some time now, and have recently acquired an old basic enlarger which I want to give a try. Now I have "fixed-up" most things that needed attention, and it is time for the rubber to meet the road. For film, I an inclined to now graduate to D-23 , made at home (vs. Caffenol which I have successfully used till date).

1. The question is, could I use the D-23 for developing silver gelatin based Paper as well?
   
2. I did not find much resources on the web discussing this, as people rarely seem to be discussing Paper Developers (side note: people have used Caffenol for Paper btw). The consensus, from what I found out, was that normally paper developers tend to be faster acting, and hence will develop films with higher contrast. And here, D-23 seems especially known for producing slow and relatively-lower-contrast negatives. Conversely, thus, a film developer recipe should produce lesser contrast for paper development – which seems to be an undesirable way to go about printing...?! Or not? Please advise.
   
   
3. Further, I have found that most Paper Dev recipes require addition of Hydroquinone – which I would need to go out and get from the city center, and I stay far. [Is it a must-add for paper development? And if yes, what could be the alternatives?] At the moment, the priority is just to get my feet wet asap, as I am in the mindset to give this a go. Was going to get Ilford PQ Universal from a local dealer (heard it can also cook films pretty well – some say a little grainier); but he is out of stock, and will get stock in another ten days or so – to far out to start, for me.
   
   
4. Another conundrum is that I have some really old local-brand sachets of universal film and paper developer at hand, in powder premix form. But they are now so old, that the each sachet has turned into a big solid bricky lump. Should it be worth it to break them, and brew in some warm water (instead of making some developer)? [Also, they also seem to prove a point that paper and film developers can be the same.]
   
   
5. While on the subject, how about D76 for Printing?

I know I am asking too many things at once, and going all over the place. Kindly excuse me for the same, in lieu of my excitement and tangentially limited options. Eagerly looking forward to your kind and able guidance!

Best regards,
Paresh

 

[koraks]

Given enough time, d23 will develop paper, although dmax may be low. Why not mix something up from what you have on hand or can easily get? There's so many formulas out there; surely something more useful than d23 for paper can be made with what you have access to.

 

[Arklatexian]

Hi guys,

Good day, there.

I have been developing my own BW film for some time now, and have recently acquired an old basic enlarger which I want to give a try. Now I have "fixed-up" most things that needed attention, and it is time for the rubber to meet the road. For film, I an inclined to now graduate to D-23 , made at home (vs. Caffenol which I have successfully used till date).

1. The question is, could I use the D-23 for developing silver gelatin based Paper as well?
2. I did not find much resources on the web discussing this, as people rarely seem to be discussing Paper Developers (side note: people have used Caffenol for Paper btw). The consensus, from what I found out, was that normally paper developers tend to be faster acting, and hence will develop films with higher contrast. And here, D-23 seems especially known for producing slow and relatively-lower-contrast negatives. Conversely, thus, a film developer recipe should produce lesser contrast for paper development – which seems to be an undesirable way to go about printing...?! Or not? Please advise.
   
   
3. Further, I have found that most Paper Dev recipes require addition of Hydroquinone – which I would need to go out and get from the city center, and I stay far. [Is it a must-add for paper development? And if yes, what could be the alternatives?] At the moment, the priority is just to get my feet wet asap, as I am in the mindset to give this a go. Was going to get Ilford PQ Universal from a local dealer (heard it can also cook films pretty well – some say a little grainier); but he is out of stock, and will get stock in another ten days or so – to far out to start, for me.
   
   
4. Another conundrum is that I have some really old local-brand sachets of universal film and paper developer at hand, in powder premix form. But they are now so old, that the each sachet has turned into a big solid bricky lump. Should it be worth it to break them, and brew in some warm water (instead of making some developer)? [Also, they also seem to prove a point that paper and film developers can be the same.]
   
   
5. While on the subject, how about D76 for Printing?

I know I am asking too many things at once, and going all over the place. Kindly excuse me for the same, in lieu of my excitement and tangentially limited options. Eagerly looking forward to your kind and able guidance!

Best regards,
Paresh

Wherever you obtained D76, probably has Dektol or a similar "paper" developer. I would only use D-76 for film (very good for most films) and a "paper" developer for paper. You will be better satisfied with the results. As we say here: "apples for apples and oranges for oranges", in other words there is a reason why film developers exist and paper developer exist. Your "universal" film and paper developer is probably a paper developer which is also being used for film, much as our old MQ universal chemistry was. .....Regards!

 

[pareshpandit]

Dear @koraks and @Arklatexian ,

Many thanks for the quick and insightful responses. (For some reason, I did not receive email notifications on post replies. Thus, kindly accept my delayed acknowledgement and thanks.)

I understand from the guidance above, and some further reading, that it would indeed be wise to buy/make separate stock developers for print and paper. And have thus made a trip to the chemical supplies store in the city, yesterday. Unfortunately for me, Metol was not in stock, and shall be sent only on Tuesday/Wednesday vide courier now. Therefore, no experimentation, until I get it, since Metol is the key developer for both formulae. [But the bonus was, at the camera store in the city, got some expired rolls of Agfa APX 100 in 120mm, really cheap. So, all was not wasted, after all, haha.]

As for Developers, have narrowed it down to an undivided D-23 for film, and a formula called Gevaert G.251 (found vide MDC). The latter is quite similar to Ilford's ID-20 MQ, and Kodak's D-72.

[Side note: I want to also try PMK Pyro soon, for film. A little later, though, at the time of my next round to the Chemical Supplies store. Also because Pyrogallol itself is quite expensive (compared to most other commercial photo chemicals i.e., excepting silver, gold, et al.) ]

Over at another forum, where I had posted this query, a fellow-member suggested Metol substitution with Phenidone. As you can see from my story so far, I really need something to replace it, right this moment. Haha. Read up on Phenidone; and man, it seems like it is certainly a much better all-round choice in terms of both speed as well as handling, than Metol. Only concern that comes to mind is that due to acting slower than Phenidone, Metol might help produce lesser contrast and thus better tonality (?). Thus sticking to Metol as of now.

Will post on my success with these, soon–perhaps here, perhaps elsewhere on the forums.
Have a nice weekend!

Thanking you,
With humble regards,
Paresh

 

[grainyvision]

There are many developers out there that will work with both paper and film, with just dilution differing. There typically isn't any big difference between paper and film, just that with paper you typically want a higher activity and contrast level. With paper you're typically developing to completion, unlike film.

Also, I've tried PMK on paper. It will leave a pyro stain on the paper which can be pretty neat if you like the warm green kind of tone. You'll need to make it a lot less dilute than for film though, and even then it'll take 3-5m per print and expires within 2 hours.

If you have some hydroquinone, you should have no trouble making a "PQ" (phenidone-hydroquinone) paper developer of sufficient activity. Phenidone alone could work, but you'll need quite a bit of it and a strongly basic solution (maybe lye) to get proper activity and contrast levels

 

[john_s]

..... Phenidone alone could work, but you'll need quite a bit of it and a strongly basic solution (maybe lye) to get proper activity and contrast levels

Phenidone alone will make life more difficult than it needs to be. The OP needs some hydroquinone.

 

[removed account4]

Hi Paresh
can you get your hands on the ingredients to make D72/dektol ? i use that to develop both film and paper all the time. it is one of those developers that was universal
1:1/1:2 for papers and for film i usually do 1:8 for 8 mins or 1:7 for 7 mins. ( you can do 1:6 for 6 mins or 1:10 for 10 mins or 1:x for x mins )
it will work better than d23 .. the G251 might be similar ... have fun ! ( and good luck ! ) john

 

[Patrick Robert James]

You can make a paper developer out of just Metol. I do it all the time. You need a lot of Metol though. I use the Ansco 120 formula as stock and don't dilute it.

There is no reason why you can't use Caffenol to develop paper too. You just need to make it stronger. The coffee might stain the paper though, but you might like that too.

If you can get Phenidone or Dimezone you can make E-72 which uses Phenidone and Vitamin C. I am assuming you already have Vitamin C since you mix Caffenol.

Hope that helps.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Paresh,

There are several Indian companies which sell almost all chemicals that you need to get you going. And they've multiple distributors in your city Mumbai. Thanks to these companies I'm able to get all chemicals in Mysore itself, so it should be much easier in Mumbai. You might want to check:
http://www.srlchem.com/stockists/stockists.php
http://www.sdfine.com/contactus.aspx

If you're a beginner, you might want to avoid mixing PMK Pyro from raw chemicals as Pyrogallol is very toxic.

 

[removed account4]

Hi Paresh

no reason why you can't use Caffenol to develop paper too. You just need to make it stronger. The coffee might stain the paper though, but you might like that too.

to add to what patrick said, i have used caffenol c as my main print and film developer for years. i mix mine a little different than most people ( if you look at the caffenol-cookbook i am in there ) before i started to roast my own robusta coffee beans to use i used instant like most people but i'd mix it heavy / strong with more ingredients. i'd also put a little bit of straight stock developer ( i'd use ansco 130, but i've done this with dektol too ) i've never mixed or used d23 but im sure it would do the same thing, it's worth trying. anyways the stock developer added a little more grain and contrast to my film. and with prints it did the same thing but with prints I do something else. still the same developer Caffenol C +, but
i start the print off developing in a different developer, usually ansco 130 or dektol ( i haven't used anything but these 2 for prints in IDK 20+ years ) and as soon as the image starts to appear i put it in the caffenol c. my theory ( probably wrong ) is the regular developer does the contrast and the ansco /dektol does the mid tones, but i'm winging it tom ( toffle ) has published his caffenol formulas. he regularly uses ( or used ) caffenol for prints and films too, but he didn't use the other developers like i do as a boost.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/media/users/toffle.19550/
http://tom-overton-images.weebly.com/caffenol.html
all this to say, you can probably still use the caffenol, easy ingredients, easy to use, easy to find and not really toxic, instead of anything else...
good luck !
john

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Paresh,

There's a distributor of Ilford in New Delhi who can get you Ilford film & print developers:
https://m.facebook.com/IlfordPhoto/posts/10153362918553734

 

[esearing]

For those of us who are not "professional" photographers, getting to experiment in the darkroom with different chemicals is 1/2 the fun. When I tried film developers for paper I found I needed them more concentrated or had longer development times, so did not save any money. A gallon of stock paper developer can go a long way, dilute for use only when needed. And if directions say dilute 1:1, try 1:2 or 1:4 and see if it significantly increases process time or tonality of print. Some paper developers are designed to give warmer/softer tones when diluted like Ethol LPD.

 

[Ian Grant]

During WWII with a scarcity of films, papers, and chemistry, for amateurs here in the UK(most production went to the military) there were articles on re-using film developers for prints. This usually meant adding a spot more Metol and some Hydroquinone, and increasing the alkalinity with Sodium Carbonate.

ian

 

[koraks]

For those of us who are not "professional" photographers, getting to experiment in the darkroom with different chemicals is 1/2 the fun

Amen!!!