Don't store your film with incense!

ParkerSmithPhoto · Sep 5, 2019

So, I had a roll of TMY last year that had some mottling on it, visible in the smooth tone areas, it wasn't horrible and I made a decent print that you wouldn't see it unless someone told you to look for it.

Fast forward to two rolls of 120, one FP4 and one HP5, that had been sitting in the drawer for over six months waiting to be developed. I was busy doing other things, I guess.

The FP4 came out covered with tiny little black pinpricks, almost as if individual grains had gotten fully exposed. I ran it in a tank with another fresh roll from the same emulsion batch which came out perfect, so there was no chance it was the film or the developer. Nice when you can eliminate two variables!

This left me puzzling, how in the hell did that happen?

So I went to grab the HP5 and process it (also with a same batch fresh roll that had not been sitting in the drawer) and the smell hit me: INCENSE! Sandalwood freaking incense. My son bought it and somehow it ended up in the drawer where I keep all my exposed rolls. I guess I had known it was in there but just didn't think much about it.

Sure enough, the HP5 had the same problem, only worse! And the fresh roll was again perfect.

Something about the incense is causing an aggressive reaction in the film. Lesson learned!

Sample image is a crop from a 11" print to show the detail.

RalphLambrecht · Sep 5, 2019

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
So, I had a roll of TMY last year that had some mottling on it, visible in the smooth tone areas, it wasn't horrible and I made a decent print that you wouldn't see it unless someone told you to look for it.

Fast forward to two rolls of 120, one FP4 and one HP5, that had been sitting in the drawer for over six months waiting to be developed. I was busy doing other things, I guess.

The FP4 came out covered with tiny little black pinpricks, almost as if individual grains had gotten fully exposed. I ran it in a tank with another fresh roll from the same emulsion batch which came out perfect, so there was no chance it was the film or the developer. Nice when you can eliminate two variables!

This left me puzzling, how in the hell did that happen?

So I went to grab the HP5 and process it (also with a same batch fresh roll that had not been sitting in the drawer) and the smell hit me: INCENSE! Sandalwood freaking incense. My son bought it and somehow it ended up in the drawer where I keep all my exposed rolls. I guess I had known it was in there but just didn't think much about it.

Sure enough, the HP5 had the same problem, only worse! And the fresh roll was again perfect.

Something about the incense is causing an aggressive reaction in the film. Lesson learned!

View attachment 230392 Sample image is a crop from a 11" print to show the detail.

good investigation;thanks for the info.

John51 · Sep 6, 2019

I respooled some FP4 to 620 and stored them in containers for Vit C effervescent tablets. They now smell of citrus. Am a bit dubious about using them.

Rudeofus · Sep 6, 2019

Wow, great catch! This could have easily turned into one of these unsolved mysteries ... thanks for reporting!

AgX · Sep 6, 2019

Still this is no proof but only indication of cause.

benjiboy · Sep 6, 2019

I'm not that religious.

Photo Engineer · Sep 6, 2019

I'm not sure that was the problem. These incenses get their odor from organic alcohols and these tend to be harmless to film. I would be more concerned about the Formaldehyde used in the manufacture of wood furniture. It tends to hang around for decades and can do just what you see to film. It is death for color films, as the formalin reacts with the magenta coupler and you get no green component to your image.

PE

AgX · Sep 6, 2019

The classic humid-storage induced mottling of rollfilm aside I do not know a manufacturer's report on such artefact they related to storage condition.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Sep 7, 2019

AgX said:
The classic humid-storage induced mottling of rollfilm aside I do not know a manufacturer's report on such artefact they related to storage condition.

That could very well be it. My basement is somewhat humid and they were stored for six months. However, I do keep a dehumidifier running constantly.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Sep 7, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
I'm not sure that was the problem. These incenses get their odor from organic alcohols and these tend to be harmless to film.

Any thoughts on this? From the Catechol Wikipedia page: 3-Trans-Isocamphylcyclohexanol, widely used as a replacement for sandalwood oil, is prepared from catechol via guaiacol and camphor.

Photo Engineer · Sep 7, 2019

Things that affect films adversely generally have an "azo", "sulfo", "thio", "azolium" and similar. Others have "ide" in their names. The reaction you refer to converts the catechol to a rather harmless substance similar to sandalwood, or similar type of oil.

I really don't know, but I do know of cases of formaldehyde in furniture glues and finishes have hurt film, either fogging them or causing excess hardening. Formalin is a reducing agent and a fogging agent.

PE

AgX · Sep 7, 2019

We do not even know whether that furniture is from true wood or MDS (and thus containing formaldehyde). The content of formaldehyde at such compound decreases by time.
Furthermore it was quite common to store exposed b&w film in such furniture. And I do not know of a respective warning.
Also a gaseous fogging agent would lead to even fogging not mottling. And a influence of the paper on such reaction then would need excessive humidity.
Am I overlooking something?

removed account4 · Sep 7, 2019

Hi Parker,
I'm sorry to see your film get all screwed up, it stinks when stuff happens that you don't expect and don't want ..
that said, I kind of like that effect, can you reveal the brand of sandalwood inscents? were they those weird looking cones or long sticks ?
Was only with FP4+HP5?
Thanks !
John

AgX · Sep 7, 2019

ParkerSmith, is the mottling only visible in transmissive lighting or also in reflected lighting, as surface artefact? You would need a good loupe to see.

devecchi · Sep 7, 2019

I had a similar problem with two lots of Hp5 and Fp4 120 (10 rolls in total …,) expiring in July 2020. Three years ago with some rolls of Hp5 135. No incense nor formaldehyde, stored together with Fomapan 200 and Tri X in the same environment but the latter had no problems. I still have a Hp5 120 unexposed film as a sad souvenir.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Sep 7, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
I would be more concerned about the Formaldehyde used in the manufacture of wood furniture. It tends to hang around for decades and can do just what you see to film.

You know, my entire dry side with enlarger table is made of PLYWOOD! The metal drawers sit right on a 3/4" thick piece of plywood. This bench was built in 1997 and I've used it ever since, but the metal drawers were a gift and they just happened to fit perfectly underneath the enlarger.

Based on your input, I am beginning to think that this is actually the source of the problem.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Sep 7, 2019

AgX said:
ParkerSmith, is the mottling only visible in transmissive lighting or also in reflected lighting, as surface artefact? You would need a good loupe to see.

You can see it quite clearly with the loupe as black spots but not as a surface artifact.

mshchem · Sep 7, 2019

Post hoc ergo propter hoc . A logical fallacy. After this, therefore because of this.

Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc (Correlation is not Causality) Star Trek logical thinking

Photo Engineer · Sep 7, 2019

AgX said:
Am I overlooking something?

Cogito sum, ergo sum, cogito.

I think I am, therefore I am, I think.

AgX, yes! It is also the FINISH to whatever you have in the wood like material, and it can appear as irregular spots as we have seen above.

PE

mshchem · Sep 8, 2019

I think I better stand down on what causes film faults. Ergo sum non compos mentis..

AgX · Sep 8, 2019

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
You know, my entire dry side with enlarger table is made of PLYWOOD!

Plywood sheets contains much less Formaldehyde than MDF sheets.

AgX · Sep 8, 2019

Here two other recent threads on Ilford rollfilm "mottling" issues:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/backing-paper-visible-through-negative.155255/

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sfx-200-serious-issue.165839/

Sirius Glass · Sep 8, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
Cogito sum, ergo sum, cogito.

I think I am, therefore I am, I think.

AgX, yes! It is also the FINISH to whatever you have in the wood like material, and it can appear as irregular spots as we have seen above.

PE

Rene Decartes walking into his local bar. The bar tender said, "Will you have red wine tonight?"
Rene said, "I think not." and vanished.

Photo Engineer · Sep 8, 2019

I hardly think Descartes would patronize an ordinary bar!

PE

mshchem · Sep 8, 2019

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
So, I had a roll of TMY last year that had some mottling on it, visible in the smooth tone areas, it wasn't horrible and I made a decent print that you wouldn't see it unless someone told you to look for it.

Fast forward to two rolls of 120, one FP4 and one HP5, that had been sitting in the drawer for over six months waiting to be developed. I was busy doing other things, I guess.

The FP4 came out covered with tiny little black pinpricks, almost as if individual grains had gotten fully exposed. I ran it in a tank with another fresh roll from the same emulsion batch which came out perfect, so there was no chance it was the film or the developer. Nice when you can eliminate two variables!

This left me puzzling, how in the hell did that happen?

So I went to grab the HP5 and process it (also with a same batch fresh roll that had not been sitting in the drawer) and the smell hit me: INCENSE! Sandalwood freaking incense. My son bought it and somehow it ended up in the drawer where I keep all my exposed rolls. I guess I had known it was in there but just didn't think much about it.

Sure enough, the HP5 had the same problem, only worse! And the fresh roll was again perfect.

Something about the incense is causing an aggressive reaction in the film. Lesson learned!

View attachment 230392
Sample image is a crop from a 11" print to show the detail.

One more reason to stay away from incense! You don't happen to store deuterated chloroform in the same drawer? Time/temperature are suspect as well. Good idea to treat film like the delicate creature that it is. At least it was only one roll. No more incense for me!

Don't store your film with incense!

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