Elaborate scratches on negative

Tom Kershaw · Sep 15, 2019

I've had odd scratches a few times recently some negatives from my Mamiya 7ii camera, however this one is the most elaborate. Although I'm tempted to think some nefarious grit is hiding inside the camera body, I'm not sure this looks like a camera induced artifact. No foreign matter on negative. Film is ILFORD HP5 Plus. Jobo processed.

Culprits would seem to be :

a) camera

b) processing - perhaps the Jobo reels are "off". I have others.

koraks · Sep 15, 2019

Looks a bit like a spider web got stuck to your film. Haven't used your stuff in a while?

Tom Kershaw · Sep 15, 2019

koraks said:
Looks a bit like a spider web got stuck to your film. Haven't used your stuff in a while?

Frequently, and these are scratches not foreign objects.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 15, 2019

Erm, well, actually... Just checked my drying cabinet and the negatives and I think Koraks, you might be right.

jeffreyg · Sep 15, 2019

I have no idea as to what caused the artifact. You could waste a roll or part of a roll of film by developing it without running it through the camera to rule out your reels and development process. I would think that a camera induced artifact would be more of a straight line appearance.

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Bob Carnie · Sep 15, 2019

Scratches would show up as minus density I believe as well its something attaching to the film , hopefully its on the base side and will wash off.

Willyekerslike · Sep 15, 2019

I had something very similar when the air filter in my drying cabinet started to break down. The fan and the heater were situated at the top of the unit. It took me a while to trace the problem but it turned out the air filter was breaking down, probably from old age like me, small pieces of the filter materiel were dropping onto the heating elemsnts and melting and the fan was blowing them down a bit like candy floss. Very similar to what you have.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 15, 2019

Bob Carnie said:
Scratches would show up as minus density I believe as well its something attaching to the film , hopefully its on the base side and will wash off.

Hi Bob, yes these marks are on the base side and I'll try and wash them off. At least it doesn't look like a problem with the camera, which I've double checked and looks fine.

mpirie · Sep 15, 2019

I have similar marks on Ilford FP4 120 roll film.

I think it's very fine remnants from the cutting process.

When the film is wet, you can remove these artifacts, they're like hairs, but much finer. Once the film dries, they are stuck to the surface.

Mike

AgX · Sep 15, 2019

Looks like a very fine synthetic monofilamant. As Koraks indicated, could be a spider filament too.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

mpirie said:
I have similar marks on Ilford FP4 120 roll film.

I think it's very fine remnants from the cutting process.

When the film is wet, you can remove these artifacts, they're like hairs, but much finer. Once the film dries, they are stuck to the surface.

Mike

How many of these marks have you experienced? - it isn't something I've seen until recently.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

AgX said:
Looks like a very fine synthetic monofilamant. As Koraks indicated, could be a spider filament too.

I'll clean the inside of my drying cabinet later today. I'd like to have confidence in using '120' film.

mpirie · Sep 16, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
How many of these marks have you experienced? - it isn't something I've seen until recently.

Likewise Tom, it's only recently that i've started to see these filaments.

After taking the film from the wetting agent, i hold the still wet film at an angle where i can see a light reflecting off the film and check both sides of the whole length for disruptions to the water draining off.

If i see some filaments, then i'll run my fingers down the edge of the roll and try to remove these strands.

If you look at the marks you have at the right angle, i think you'll see you have the same issue because the marks are raised.

Mike

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

mpirie said:
Likewise Tom, it's only recently that i've started to see these filaments.

After taking the film from the wetting agent, i hold the still wet film at an angle where i can see a light reflecting off the film and check both sides of the whole length for disruptions to the water draining off.

If i see some filaments, then i'll run my fingers down the edge of the roll and try to remove these strands.

If you look at the marks you have at the right angle, i think you'll see you have the same issue because the marks are raised.

Mike

Presumably you're using a different camera, not a Mamiya range finder?

Kino · Sep 16, 2019

These could be film "skyvings" or shavings from the edge of the film. This sometimes happens when the film is slit and the filaments are attracted to the base by static electricity.

It can also happen when a rough edge in a camera or film path shaves the edge of the film as it is transported through the camera.

This happens quite a bit in motion picture printing and that's why we have "tacky" rollers before the printing aperture; to capture the detritus before it piles-up in the gate. Of course, you tend to see it more when you run 2000 feet of film at a time through a printer, rather than a few feet through a still camera.

If there is no physical artifact on the film now, the skyving could have been present during exposure and then been washed-off or fell off during exposure.

JPD · Sep 16, 2019

It looks to thick to be from a spider, but more like a synthetic fibre. Shavings from the edge of the film sounds probable. You don't have a cotton candy machine running in your darkroom?

mpirie · Sep 16, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
Presumably you're using a different camera, not a Mamiya range finder?

Correct, i've seen it from my Hasselblad backs as well as my Fuji 690's.

Mike

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

JPD said:
It looks to thick to be from a spider, but more like a synthetic fibre. Shavings from the edge of the film sounds probable. You don't have a cotton candy machine running in your darkroom?

No candy machines in my darkroom. I think synthetic fibre is a strong possibility. I suppose my Jobo reels could be shaving off the edges of the film.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

mpirie said:
Correct, i've seen it from my Hasselblad backs as well as my Fuji 690's.

Mike

Any rough edges etc. on the film path with either of these cameras?

Tom

mpirie · Sep 16, 2019

Nope, and it doesn't happen with Tri-X in the same cameras.

Although i normally use Jobo reels, i've seen it happen recently with Paterson reels too......hence the suspicion that it's a manufacturing fault.

Mike

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

mpirie said:
Nope, and it doesn't happen with Tri-X in the same cameras.

Although i normally use Jobo reels, i've seen it happen recently with Paterson reels too......hence the suspicion that it's a manufacturing fault.

Mike

Perhaps I should try contacting Harman / ILFORD Photo.

Tom

railwayman3 · Sep 16, 2019

Tom Kershaw said:
Perhaps I should try contacting Harman / ILFORD Photo.

Tom

Definitely try Harman.....send them the faulty neg, or the image, and the film batch number if possible. Even if you don't think it's a manufacturing fault, they may well have seen seen similar issues before, and always seem very helpful.

BradS · Sep 16, 2019

Amazing. The collected knowledge of members here is amazing.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

I've cleaned out my drying cabinet and processed another roll of HP5 Plus from the same batch dated 'April 2022'. I can confirm that I found a strand of filament on the film before being hung to dry, as described by Mike, and which I was able to remove. I also noticed that the short edge of the ILFORD film had been slit rather roughly.

Tom Kershaw · Sep 16, 2019

mpirie said:
If you look at the marks you have at the right angle, i think you'll see you have the same issue because the marks are raised.

Yes, I see that same issue.

Elaborate scratches on negative

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