F stop timer options

MattKing · Feb 1, 2025

If you are going to add electrical options, I could really use a remote trigger and receiver combination.
My safelight source is on the ceiling across from where the enlarger and timer are. I can't safely and easily connect it to the safelight outlet, without having cords to trip over, or cable routing mounting holes in the walls and ceilings in the temporary bathroom/darkroom, which can't really happen.
I need a transmitter in the safelight outlet which communicates with a receiver between the wall plug and the safelight which turns the safelight on in the same way as a safelight plugged directly into the safelight outlet.
It can't hurt to suggest

Pieter12 · Feb 1, 2025

MattKing said:
If you are going to add electrical options, I could really use a remote trigger and receiver combination.
My safelight source is on the ceiling across from where the enlarger and timer are. I can't safely and easily connect it to the safelight outlet, without having cords to trip over, or cable routing mounting holes in the walls and ceilings in the temporary bathroom/darkroom, which can't really happen.
I need a transmitter in the safelight outlet which communicates with a receiver between the wall plug and the safelight which turns the safelight on in the same way as a safelight plugged directly into the safelight outlet.
It can't hurt to suggest

If your safelight is that far from the enlarger, do you really need to turn it off during exposure?

dkonigs · Feb 1, 2025

MattKing said:
If you are going to add electrical options, I could really use a remote trigger and receiver combination.
My safelight source is on the ceiling across from where the enlarger and timer are. I can't safely and easily connect it to the safelight outlet, without having cords to trip over, or cable routing mounting holes in the walls and ceilings in the temporary bathroom/darkroom, which can't really happen.
I need a transmitter in the safelight outlet which communicates with a receiver between the wall plug and the safelight which turns the safelight on in the same way as a safelight plugged directly into the safelight outlet.
It can't hurt to suggest

I actually have the same problem in my darkroom. Its not a matter of distance, but more one of space and wire routing.
But anyways, I found a very easy solution. This gadget called the "Switcheroo":

Amazon.com

(There are probably DMX gizmos to extend things via radio signals, but for the simple case of "I just want to extend flipping this outlet on/off" the Switcheroo works perfectly.)

Sundowner · Feb 1, 2025

I don't usually turn my safelights off during exposures, but that's an interesting little widget that might just convince me to do it.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2025

Pieter12 said:
If your safelight is that far from the enlarger, do you really need to turn it off during exposure?

Yes - because it is a 16 foot LED rope light that relatively evenly lights my fairly large bathroom/darkroom with low intensity, red light - that is quite wonderful to work in.
The enlarger is in one corner, then there is the door, then there is a short wall which has the safelight's power source halfway up.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2025

Sundowner said:
I don't usually turn my safelights off during exposures, but that's an interesting little widget that might just convince me to do it.

It is critical for darkrooms where the safelight is relatively bright, and the light intensity/image visibility is relatively low.
Otherwise, it is very hard to see where to burn and dodge.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2025

dkonigs said:
I actually have the same problem in my darkroom. Its not a matter of distance, but more one of space and wire routing.
But anyways, I found a very easy solution. This gadget called the "Switcheroo":

Amazon.com

(There are probably DMX gizmos to extend things via radio signals, but for the simple case of "I just want to extend flipping this outlet on/off" the Switcheroo works perfectly.)

Thanks - I'll have to see whether this is available through Amazon Canada, and at what cost.

koraks · Feb 2, 2025

Pieter12 said:
If your safelight is that far from the enlarger, do you really need to turn it off during exposure?

Very rarely I find it advantageous to turn off the safelight when burning & dodging a particularly dense negative.
However, I find having regular (white) room lights on remote control very convenient, especially when printing color.

dkonigs said:
This gadget called the "Switcheroo":

Smart!

MattKing · Feb 2, 2025

I can read a newspaper in my darkroom with the safelight on - it is a really good working environment, and I would be loathe to reduce that advantage!
And my LPL 7700 with VCCE head is fairly dim when printing 35mm negatives, or sometimes even 6x4.5.
And yes, the safelight passes the full Kodak Safelight Test.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 2, 2025

Certain Exposures said:
Moderator's Note: This discussion of Darkroom Equipment options has been moved out of the thread respecting an exhibition and Photographer found here:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...journey-to-my-exhibition.210931/#post-2857779

Time spent scripting, filming, and editing for YouTube is time lost to photograph or print! Video demands so much.

Have you ever tried using one of the already available f-stop timers? Derek is working on making an improved and modernized one. His documentation links to more detailed blog posts he wrote.

Lucky!

this looks like an extremely useful device!

Sundowner · Feb 2, 2025

MattKing said:
It is critical for darkrooms where the safelight is relatively bright, and the light intensity/image visibility is relatively low.
Otherwise, it is very hard to see where to burn and dodge.

My old darkroom was somewhere around 11' by 12' or so, and it was lit by two Thomas safelights...so it was seriously bright. I used those mostly because 1) they were free, and B) I wanted to be able to read my ridiculously-bad handwriting without turning on the room lights, because I couldn't be bothered to walk two steps away from the enlarger to do that. Also, the room lights were not appreciably brighter than the twin safelights, so they didn't contribute much...but mostly I'm just lazy.

Dodging and burning...oof, I could go on about that for awhile. Rather, I'm sure I could go on about it for awhile if I ever actually did it. Every once in awhile I'll find a negative that needs it here or there, but it's pretty rare...and I think that's actually not due to me being lazy, but simply being drawn to images that are more balanced on the contact sheet. Even then, it's usually just a single step of burning; possibly a second operation, if the composition needs it. I don't know that I've ever done three.

Bill Burk · Feb 2, 2025

koraks said:
Not to be flippant, but that's easy to achieve with a regular seconds-based timer. I do it all the time. Yes, it takes a little experience knowing what kind of times you'll have to aim for, but that comes within the course of a few printing sessions.

You could achieve that by having a multi-colored light source that's DMX controllable. Does it exist? IDK, never looked for it. You could of course build an interface box between any array of light sources on one end and a DMX interface on the other. Maybe something like that is already available off the shelf.

No special timer needed. I memorize the third-stop sequence 50, 40, 32, 25, 20, 16, 13, 10 and use an ordinary Omega audible repeating timer (I move the card at clicks 10, 8, 7, 5, 4, 3, 3). Stabilized light source makes a huge improvement in repeatability.

Bill Burk · Feb 2, 2025

Sundowner said:
Dodging and burning...oof, I could go on about that for awhile. Rather, I'm sure I could go on about it for awhile if I ever actually did it. Every once in awhile I'll find a negative that needs it here or there, but it's pretty rare...and I think that's actually not due to me being lazy, but simply being drawn to images that are more balanced on the contact sheet. Even then, it's usually just a single step of burning; possibly a second operation, if the composition needs it. I don't know that I've ever done three.

Opposite here. If I haven’t done any dodge or burn I feel as if I’m not responding to the negative.

As you look at the test strip thinking about what base print time will be good, you’ll see a strip that pretty much looks right. But you will see some parts where an adjacent strip looks better for that thing.

Limiting dodges and burns to one or two strips away from the base exposure (2/3 stop) keeps the results subtle.

Big jumps leaves halos which are ugly.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2025

Bill Burk said:
Opposite here. If I haven’t done any dodge or burn I feel as if I’m not responding to the negative.

Sort of the same for me.
They are critical parts of the toolkit, and when I expose a negative, I do so knowing that those tools are both available, and potentially incredibly important.

MattKing · Feb 2, 2025

Sundowner said:
My old darkroom was somewhere around 11' by 12' or so, and it was lit by two Thomas safelights...so it was seriously bright

Thomas safelights are great, except you have to leave them on continuously.
My LED rope light is similarly bright, and can be turned off and on at will I just want to have the timer do that for me!

Sundowner · Feb 2, 2025

MattKing said:
Sort of the same for me.
They are critical parts of the toolkit, and when I expose a negative, I do so knowing that those tools are both available, and potentially incredibly important.

No argument; I just don't have a lot of use for them in my typical work, and that's not entirely because I'm bad at counting. Rather, it's like having a 1"-drive impact wrench when you don't work on heavy equipment for a living; it's not that there's no use at all for it, it's just that the tool otherwise doesn't have much use...so I don't go looking for uses. When I do employ dodges/burns, it's usually just a very, very slight amount; thus, a timer that counts in fractional stops works for me.

MattKing said:
Thomas safelights are great, except you have to leave them on continuously.
My LED rope light is similarly bright, and can be turned off and on at will I just want to have the timer do that for me!

Yep, they're pretty limited in that regard; if you shut them down there's a definite waiting-in-the-dark period. That being said: I've often thought about going to LED safelights, because they've come a long way in recent years...but they don't make that annoying humming noise that I've come to love. So, we'll see...but I'm with you on the timer-control; anything that can be done to automate the stuff I forget or the stuff that I don't want to do is a welcome feature.

kuhyraco · Feb 11, 2025

I need to replace my existing solution (android tablet + FADU app + smart socket) with a classic f-stop timer. FADU app is great for generating a test strip, but otherwise it's not the most convenient job, especially when it comes to dodge/burn sequences and control safelight.

The choice is clear (RH Designs StopClock and DA Timer). I probably won't wait for Printalyzer and maybe MAYA in the future.

As I read the manuals, I did not find any major technical difference. I've seen some videos about StopClock and I'd almost say that the minimalist control of DA suits me better, but that's only from the text in the manual.

I already use a DA meter which is great, so all I need is a timer. Is there a reason to invest so much more in equipment from RH? Is it more robust, more reliable, more pleasant to use in practice?
Sometimes I'll have a course in the darkroom, the only thing I can think of is that StopClock can be clearer for a beginner if it show the exposure in seconds and not in f-stop. I don't care (with a DA meter it might be better to enter the f-stop directly).

Sundowner · Feb 11, 2025

kuhyraco said:
Is there a reason to invest so much more in equipment from RH? Is it more robust, more reliable, more pleasant to use in practice?

Respectively: yes, no, no and yes.

The reason to invest is the basic functionality; if said functionality works better for you than other options, then it's a good investment to make. I don't find them any not robust/reliable than other options. Usage is more pleasant, sure, but that's because I like the way the buttons feel and I (mostly) like the user interface.

kuhyraco said:
Sometimes I'll have a course in the darkroom, the only thing I can think of is that StopClock can be clearer for a beginner if it show the exposure in seconds and not in f-stop. I don't care (with a DA meter it might be better to enter the f-stop directly).

The exposure on my StopClock is displayed in seconds; the intervals at which it counts are the f-stops, and the degree of change from one exposure to the next - steps, essentially - are listed in stops.

blacksquare · Feb 11, 2025

Sundowner said:
The exposure on my StopClock is displayed in seconds; the intervals at which it counts are the f-stops, and the degree of change from one exposure to the next - steps, essentially - are listed in stops.

When a sequence (program) is created in the DA timer, it is probably a little more pleasant to me that when I need to set the burn for half stop I set it right there and see b0.5...... with StopClock Pro, if I understand correctly, according to the selected step, I tap once or x times and see for example 5.38 sec (half stop from 13 sec).

I then have to think/calculate more when I am going through or editing the sequence in StopClock.
StopClock:
0 13.00
1 5.38

DA:
e3.7
b0.5

Pieter12 · Feb 11, 2025

blacksquare said:
When a sequence (program) is created in the DA timer, it is probably a little more pleasant to me that when I need to set the burn for half stop I set it right there and see b0.5...... with StopClock Pro, if I understand correctly, according to the selected step, I tap once or x times and see for example 5.38 sec (half stop from 13 sec).

I then have to think/calculate more when I am going through or editing the sequence in StopClock.
StopClock:
0 13.00
1 5.38

DA:
e3.7
b0.5

You can set the stop clock to change in intervals of seconds or fractions of stops. For you example, if the interval is set to 1/2 stops, it is just one click. For smaller intervals, you would need to change the amount each for each click from 1/12 stop to 1/2 stop. Not s confusing as you think, no math involved.

Chuck_P · Feb 11, 2025

blacksquare said:
When a sequence (program) is created in the DA timer, it is probably a little more pleasant to me that when I need to set the burn for half stop I set it right there and see b0.5...... with StopClock Pro, if I understand correctly, according to the selected step, I tap once or x times and see for example 5.38 sec (half stop from 13 sec).

I then have to think/calculate more when I am going through or editing the sequence in StopClock.
StopClock:
0 13.00
1 5.38

DA:
e3.7
b0.5

I can't speak to the RH but I really like the DA timer as I can now cycle through the menu system really well and set and view the step sequence nicely. The only caveat is the dodging when I have more than one dodge I want to perform. I simply can't do it the way it's stated in the manual. My work around is to set a single dodge time that basically equals the base exposure. I perform all dodges within that time, keeping good notes on where and for how long to dodge.

David Brown · Feb 11, 2025

Twenty years ago, I took a printing workshop with Les McLean (anybody remember him on this forum?). He had the new RH Designs timer that he was using and demonstrating. I thought it was a nifty gadget, but I didn’t “need” it. I could divide by 2, after all. Then as karma would have it, my fancy Gralab 900 timer died a few months later. I needed a new timer. Why not? I bought the RH timer and have never looked back.

The best benefit for me is test strips. What a revelation when all of the steps are the same! Of course, when I was teaching darkroom, our lab was equipped with the basic Time-O-Lite timers. so I taught the "start with 5 second intervals" method.

There is a lot of back and forth in this thread defending and dismissing f-stop timing. Fine. To each his own. I suspect that the most vocal against it are those who have never done it or seen it in action. I could be wrong.

It works for me, as it does for a lot of people. That is why there are still products to facilitate it. Do you need it? No. According to legend, Saint Ansel used a metronome.

blacksquare · Feb 11, 2025

Pieter12 said:
You can set the stop clock to change in intervals of seconds or fractions of stops. For you example, if the interval is set to 1/2 stops, it is just one click. For smaller intervals, you would need to change the amount each for each click from 1/12 stop to 1/2 stop. Not s confusing as you think, no math involved.

Sure, the intervals are in fractions of a stop, but the exposure still shows in seconds, right? If I create a sequence with a base exposure and five burns and scroll through the sequence, I see 6 rows with different values in seconds, right?

I usually make a work print and mark the individual dodge/burn there. So I will have stops (or their fractions) on the print and the same in the DA Timer. When I return to the sequence/program in a month and want to make the same print and maybe even edit one burn, I can easily identify it.

But in StopClock I just have rows of numbers that don't mean anything to me unless I note them down or calculate them.

Example. Simple print, when i need to burn sky, then burn cloud in the sky more end then burn some tree. From meter/test strips i get my plan:

3.7 stop (13sec) base exposure whole print
0.5 stop sky burn
0.7 stop cloud progressive burn from previous (sky) exposure
1.2 stop tree burn from base exposure

DA program:
1e3.7
2b0.5
3p0.7
4b1.2

StopClock program:
0 13
1 5.38
2 11.48
3 16.86

Or am I wrong and it will look different in StopClock?

blacksquare · Feb 11, 2025

Chuck_P said:
I can't speak to the RH but I really like the DA timer as I can now cycle through the menu system really well and set and view the step sequence nicely. The only caveat is the dodging when I have more than one dodge I want to perform. I simply can't do it the way it's stated in the manual. My work around is to set a single dodge time that basically equals the base exposure. I perform all dodges within that time, keeping good notes on where and for how long to dodge.

Dodge is probably always a problem For RH the base exposure must be shortened and than burn must be done.

dkonigs · Feb 12, 2025

blacksquare said:
Dodge is probably always a problem For RH the base exposure must be shortened and than burn must be done.

Yeah, I'm really wondering if there is a better way to actually implement dodge in one of these timers.

My current approach (which is likely the same as RH, albeit with a better user interface) is to reduce the base exposure, then tell the user to "dodge" an area while doing another exposure. This works, but only works well for a single dodge area/step. Having multiple burn steps is a lot easier.

Another approach would be to have a way to tell the user how long to dodge any given area during a base exposure, but making the indication clear is difficult, juggling between sequential and simultaneous/overlapping area dodging is difficult, and figuring out how to actually give the user useful instructions and cues throughout this process is difficult.

There are many ways to actually "do it" under the enlarger, the appropriate way depends on the circumstance or even preference, and the UI for configuring all of this is bound to be confusing.

(Only supporting multiple dodge areas that are sequential might be the easiest, but you'll run out of undodged base exposure time so quickly it may not even be worth it.)

F stop timer options

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