Fiber printing advice please :)

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Hello,
I’m studying a darkroom photography course, but again I need some advice please.
So far I’ve Learned how to develop my own negs, develop my own prints, use the correct chemistry and substrates like Ilford paper… and lately dodging and burning etc…. but the next brief is more challenging..
We have to submit fiber based work on 12-16 format. The thing is .. previously we were taught to start with contact sheets, tests strips, then work prints, dodging and burning, etc, before producing our 10x 8” final prints, (or larger prints).

What process would you go through for printing on fiber on 16-12 ? Would you l Start with work prints? On fiber, then establish what needs dodging and burning etc before going larger ? Or would you just print on larger ?
My only concern is doing the whole process twice, which takes a lot of time . Is this the way it’s always done?

Another question..
As you upscale from a work print later, etc the exposure ratios change.
Is there a a formula for this? For example.. I start on a work print 10x 8, then go to 16-12 , I have to recalculate it all again. Basically I’m limited for time and I’m seeking advice on the best option / method efc. Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks

Sirius Glass · Mar 11, 2022

I first do testing for Magenta and then one I have that exposure I make a print of that and before developing test for yellow. That provides split grade prints that bring out the best.

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
I first do testing for Magenta and then one I have that exposure I make a print of that and before developing test for yellow. That provides split grade prints that bring out the best.

Sorry I should of said, I’m printing back and white. Or do you mean testing the contrast? Like using filters? Thanks

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 11, 2022

The reason for doing smaller work prints before moving up to the larger final size is cost. Also minimizing the amount of waste/pollution you create. Making pollution costs money, after all - like your father told you "Pollution doesn't grow on trees; it takes hard work to make pollution."

I start with RC work prints and then move to the final sized fiber print. I may do some fiber test strips if I think I may need a final tweak. It can be a good idea to do a small test swatch on fiber, run it through any toning step and then dry it in the microwave then examine the print in the same sort of light where the print will be exhibited.

As to changing exposure times as you change print sizes you can try the ruler at http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/stopsruler.pdf and http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/stopstableforruler.pdf There is a long sticky thread on the subject at https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/factor-for-enlarger-head-height-adjustment.44339/

Sirius Glass · Mar 11, 2022

Chrishuddersfield said:
Sorry I should of said, I’m printing back and white. Or do you mean testing the contrast? Like using filters? Thanks

Yes, contrast filters for color printing: Magenta for higher contrast range and Yellow for the lower contrast range.

Do not be afraid to ask questions, none of us was born with this knowledge.

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Nicholas Lindan said:
The reason for doing smaller work prints before moving up to the larger final size is cost. Also minimizing the amount of waste/pollution you create. Making pollution costs money, after all - like your father told you "Pollution doesn't grow on trees; it takes hard work to make pollution."

I start with RC work prints and then move to the final sized fiber print. I may do some fiber test strips if I think I may need a final tweak. It can be a good idea to do a small test swatch on fiber, run it through any toning step and then dry it in the microwave then examine the print in the same sort of light where the print will be exhibited.

As to changing exposure times as you change print sizes you can try the ruler at http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/stopsruler.pdf and http://www.darkroomautomation.com/support/stopstableforruler.pdf There is a long sticky thread on the subject at https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/factor-for-enlarger-head-height-adjustment.44339/

Thanks for the information appreciated. Is it possible to print fiber at home? With a basic darkroom I mean ? Or would you suggest doing my work prints etc at home then going in to uni to do the fiber based stuff. I recently acquired an old darkroom. Thanks .

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Yes, contrast filters for color printing: Magenta for higher contrast range and Yellow for the lower contrast range.

Do not be afraid to ask questions, none of us was born with this knowledge.

Thank you very much

Nicholas Lindan · Mar 11, 2022

Chrishuddersfield said:
Is it possible to print fiber at home? With a basic darkroom I mean ?

Of course you can.

The only changes for fiber are: longer developing, fixing and washing times and the requirement for an acid stop bath.

Pieter12 · Mar 11, 2022

Until you can determine the corresponding ratio between your RC paper's sensitivity compared with your fiber paper, you need to pretty much start from scratch for your test strips, but once you have established your basic exposure you should be able to figure out how to adjust your dodging and burning times. There is a simple factor for calculating the time increase for different enlarging sizes. A chart in the back of the Way Beyond Monochrome book has some useful info, or you may be able to find it online, An example would be if you go from 8x10 to 11x14, you double the exposure (I usually open up one stop, this leaves your dodging and burning time the same).

Rick A · Mar 11, 2022

Nicholas Lindan said:
Of course you can.

The only changes for fiber are: longer developing, fixing and washing times and the requirement for an acid stop bath.

Plus a two bath fixer, splitting the fixing times between them.

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Nicholas Lindan said:
Of course you can.

The only changes for fiber are: longer developing, fixing and washing times and the requirement for an acid stop bath.

Ok thanks, it’s just I’ve noticed the wash time is ages and the prints seem to curl a lot, even after been pegged up over night.

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Rick A said:
Plus a two bath fixer, splitting the fixing times between them.

Thanks

Chrishuddersfield · Mar 11, 2022

Pieter12 said:
Until you can determine the corresponding ratio between your RC paper's sensitivity compared with your fiber paper, you need to pretty much start from scratch for your test strips, but once you have established your basic exposure you should be able to figure out how to adjust your dodging and burning times. There is a simple factor for calculating the time increase for different enlarging sizes. A chart in the back of the Way Beyond Monochrome book has some useful info, or you may be able to find it online, An example would be if you go from 8x10 to 11x14, you double the exposure (I usually open up one stop, this leaves your dodging and burning time the same).

Thanks for that. I’ll try and get a copy. I just want to develop some form of system. that saves time.

logan2z · Mar 11, 2022

Chrishuddersfield said:
Ok thanks, it’s just I’ve noticed the wash time is ages and the prints seem to curl a lot, even after been pegged up over night.

Dry the prints face down on a drying screen, that'll minimize the curl (but won't eliminate it). Once dry, you can either flatten under a set of heavy books or in a dry mount press, if you have access to one.

MattKing · Mar 11, 2022

You may want to make your smaller prints at home, and then the larger presentation prints at school.
In my case, the reasons to do a work print are more related to refining my vision in the result than they are to determining the exact exposure and contrast and dodging and burning in the larger, final result. I do most of your exploration on the smaller paper - RC being a good choice - and then use what I learn to guide me in making the larger, fibre paper print.
Regarding changing exposure to take into account a change in magnification, the aids linked to above will get you close. You may find though that aesthetic factors will lead you to adjust the result. As an example, I often find that an increase in magnification means I need to increase my contrast a little bit. There are both technological and subjective visual reasons for this.
In addition, you may find that the change in size (and any change in paper substrate and surface) may lead you change slightly the appearance you want the image to have. That may be related to a number of factors, but they are real.
Finally, their are tools (enlarging meters) that make changing the exposure in response to changing the magnification very simple. You may or may not have those available to you, and the conditions of your assignment may or may not permit you to use them. I own a very rudimentary one (an Ilford EM-10) and this is actually when it is most useful.

MARTIE · Mar 11, 2022

Unfortunately, efficiency, speed, cost saving and quality are generally a little at odds with each other.
And in my experience, when it comes to printing, the state of your negatives will probably be the determining factor. Poorly exposed, poorly processed or mishandled negatives make headaches for printing. And will incur additional time and material and therefore financial resources.

If I were you;

1. Try to use the same enlarger for all printing, otherwise, all exposure and contrast filter calculations will be off.

2. Trim down your 12x16" fibre based paper into four equal parts, 6x8".

3. Make all of the 6x8" small prints, taking notes; Enlarger head height, lens aperture, exposure time, contrast filter settings.

4. Make all of the 12x16" enlargements with help from your notes.

jimjm · Mar 11, 2022

Wash times for most papers can be reduced by using a Hypo-clear before the final wash. Most papers will mention this in the datasheet.
If an image requires considerable dodging/burning or split-grade, I'll work out the ratios with RC paper first to save cost and time. Once I match the base exposure and contrast on fiber paper, it's easy to duplicate these manipulations.
I'll let fiber prints hang to drip-dry first, then place on drying screens to dry relatively flat. Then in a dry-mount press to flatten before filing away or mounting. Some folks will place the prints under heavy books to flatten, which works also.
Some fiber papers dry a lot flatter than others. I've found Arista papers to be flatter than Ilford. Relative humidity in your area can also reduce the curling.

MARTIE · Mar 11, 2022

For fibre base print drying and flatness, check to see if your Uni has a fibre base drum dryer. They were quite common in the day.
If not, see if they have a dry mount press.
Fibre based papers are more sensitive to physical damage, especially when wet and susceptible to staining by improper procedure. Thorough washing of fibre based paper is also essential.

markbau · Mar 11, 2022

Rick A said:
Plus a two bath fixer, splitting the fixing times between them.

It should be pointed out that 2 bath fixing is optional. The Ilford fixing procedure involves 1 tray of film strength fixer for a timed 60 seconds.

Pieter12 · Mar 11, 2022

Shouldn't you be asking your instructor these questions?

gone · Mar 12, 2022

You would print a FB print exactly as you would an RC print, only the wash times are different. The fun begins when you dry the FR prints, but I don't want to spoil your fun, you'll figure it out.

Rick A · Mar 12, 2022

markbau said:
It should be pointed out that 2 bath fixing is optional. The Ilford fixing procedure involves 1 tray of film strength fixer for a timed 60 seconds.

My fixer is mixed 1+4 for paper and 1+7 for film, how does using film dilution for half the time as paper work? I'll stick to what my fixer times as recommended by the manufacturer. I still have photos from 1964 that have been on my wall forever still look like the day I printed them. Single fixing bath for RC prints works fine, but I'm sticking with a tried and true method for fiber.

markbau · Mar 12, 2022

Rick A said:
My fixer is mixed 1+4 for paper and 1+7 for film, how does using film dilution for half the time as paper work? I'll stick to what my fixer times as recommended by the manufacturer. I still have photos from 1964 that have been on my wall forever still look like the day I printed them. Single fixing bath for RC prints works fine, but I'm sticking with a tried and true method for fiber.

Ilford data sheets for its rapid fixer say 1:4 for 60 seconds for fibre paper. I guess you can dilute 1:7 for film but I stick with what Ilford says. For film, Ilford only recommends 1:4.
The theory behind the Ilford method is that the print is in the fixer for a much shorter time so the paper does not absorb as much fixer as it does with the two bath method.

jeffreyg · Mar 12, 2022

If you have the access to scan your negatives you can screen them for composition and areas that might need burning or dodging etc You can also make a test print with notes to carry into the darkroom. That may save you some time and paper by having a guide for your print selection and eliminating those that won’t work or are beyond your current darkroom skills.
http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

Rick A · Mar 12, 2022

markbau said:
Ilford data sheets for its rapid fixer say 1:4 for 60 seconds for fibre paper. I guess you can dilute 1:7 for film but I stick with what Ilford says. For film, Ilford only recommends 1:4.
The theory behind the Ilford method is that the print is in the fixer for a much shorter time so the paper does not absorb as much fixer as it does with the two bath method.

I follow the manufacturer data for the brand of fixer I use. 1+7 is for film only.
I never use Ilford fixers, but this is a cut and paste from Ilford's tech sheet for Rapid fix:
Two Bath Fixing
An extremely efficient method of fixing film or paper is to use the two bath fixing technique. Make up two separate fixing baths of the same solution volume. Fix the film or paper in the first bath for half the recommended fixing time and then transfer them to the second bath for the remainder of the time. Continue to work this way until the capacity of the first bath is reached, then discarded it and replace it with the second fixer bath. Prepare and use a completely fresh second bath. Repeat this process as required with the result that the film or paper is always thoroughly fixed by the relatively fresh fixer in the second bath.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1833/product/711/

Fiber printing advice please :)

Chrishuddersfield

Sirius Glass

Chrishuddersfield

Nicholas Lindan

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Sirius Glass

Chrishuddersfield

Chrishuddersfield

Nicholas Lindan

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Pieter12

Rick A

Chrishuddersfield

Chrishuddersfield

Chrishuddersfield

logan2z

MattKing

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MARTIE

jimjm

MARTIE

markbau

Pieter12

gone

Rick A

markbau

jeffreyg

Rick A

Fiber printing advice please :)

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