Fuji Neopan 100 Acros II developed in 1:1 XTOL came out really thin

[Crysist]

Title says most of it, but I exposed 2 different ways, as metered and auto flash, and both gave similarly thin results.

I just a Canon Demi EE17 and wanted to test it with some B&W. I first checked the internal meter against a metering app and found it was accurate so I trusted it. I set it to EI 80 and shot mostly on auto. Later, I checked the shutter speeds and found they were quite uniformly (from the slowest speed to the highest) 2/3 stops too slow. So, in total, besides the long exposures and flash, all the auto shots are actually overexposed 1 stop from box speed.

The chandelier up top was the brightest object and the sky in the other frames didn't get nearly as dense. Sky usually gets quite dense on my previous (HP5+, Delta 100 all with the CS Monobath DF96):



Here are two exposures of NY. I recall the 2nd was wide open at 8 sec (I think I metered around 1s with my phone):



1st was just on auto on a brightly lit train platform at night; 2nd was done with an auto flash, so it wouldn't be affected by any inaccuracy in the shutter, bounced off the ceiling:



Additionally, the exposed leader was dark but it wasn't nearly as dark as my other B&W rolls. All these negatives are mostly close to the density of the borders.

For dev, I was testing some powder XTOL that I got and I hadn't used yet. I was only using DF96 for B&W before and the Arista 3 bath E6 for slides which I've been having way too much fun with.

I mixed the XTOL as directed, but cutting the volumes and masses to 1/10 to make 500ml stock. Made a 1:1 working solution and prepared Ilford rapid fixer at 1:4, as directed. Washed the film for almost a min, developed at room temp, maybe higher (68-70F), for 9.5 min, washed with a lot of water (7 changes), then fixed for 5 minutes. Then I washed again and added some Photo-flo.

Is there a reason I should be getting negatives as thin as this? I try to err on the side of overexposure for negatives and my monobath ones haven't home out anywhere near this thin.

 

[MattKing]

I mixed the XTOL as directed, but cutting the volumes and masses to 1/10 to make 500ml stock.

I'm not sure I understand this.
Did you start with the entire double package, and did you mix it up to make the full 5 litres of stock developer?

 

[Crysist]

I'm not sure I understand this.
Did you start with the entire double package, and did you mix it up to make the full 5 litres of stock developer?

There were two packages. I did everything scaled down 1/10. The original directions are: add part A (244g), add 4L water, add part B (270g), top off to 5L.

I took 24g of A, added 400mL of water, added 27g of part B, topped that off to 500mL.

 

[MattKing]

It doesn't work that way.
There is no reliable way to ensure homogeneous distribution of the constituent parts of the developer when mixing up packages of powdered developer - particularly with developers you mix from more than one package.
The developer you mixed up will almost be guaranteed to not be the right strength or activity - except by pure chance.
If you mix up the rest of the powder into 4.5 litres of liquid, it will probably be closer to the proper strength, and therefore usable, but it won't be exactly the same as the proper strength stuff.
Any division into smaller quantities needs to be done after you mix it up into liquid form, not by dividing the powders.

 

[Crysist]

It doesn't work that way.
There is no reliable way to ensure homogeneous distribution of the constituent parts of the developer when mixing up packages of powdered developer - particularly with developers you mix from more than one package.
The developer you mixed up will almost guaranteed to not be the right strength or activity - except by pure chance.
If you mix up the rest of the powder into 4.5 litres of liquid, it will probably be closer to the proper strength, and therefore usable, but it won't be exactly the same as the proper strength stuff.
Any division into smaller quantities needs to be done after you mix it up into liquid form, not by dividing the powders.

Really? I figured it wouldn't have been considering you already might get minor errors with amounts. Are they really that sensitive?

What's the best way to mix XTOL in the full amount? I was a bit worried about "to make 5L" if I don't have something graduated with that capacity. I could use the distilled water jug maybe, replacing it with A, add 4 pitcher-fulls of 1L of the water, add B, then add another 1L?

 

[Aidan Sciortino]

They definitely are sensitive, especially X-Tol as its citric acid based instead of metol.

I’ve mixed it in a bucket before, just measure the liquid in and pour it carefully into a storage container.

That being said, if you aren’t doing a lot of volume check out Adox XT-3. It’s the same as X-Tol but available in 1L packets.

 

[dokko]

That being said, if you aren’t doing a lot of volume check out Adox XT-3. It’s the same as X-Tol but available in 1L packets.

It also is designed to get less chemical durst airborne and dussolve better, both of which I appreciate a lot.

And yes, definitely mix powder developers as full packages only (as the OP found out the hard way)

 

[pentaxuser]

What's the best way to mix XTOL in the full amount? I was a bit worried about "to make 5L" if I don't have something graduated with that capacity. I could use the distilled water jug maybe, replacing it with A, add 4 pitcher-fulls of 1L of the water, add B, then add another 1L?

The way you describe your proposed mixing above sounds OK to me in terms of measurements It doesn't have to be exactly 5L to the exactly ml as long as the 1L pitcher jug is about 1L

Once mixed then fill 4X1L containers and then divide the last 1L into 4x 250ml containers. In each container fill to the brim to exclude air Once the 4x250ml are used transfer the next 1L container into the empty 4 x250ml bottles What you trying to do is ti exclude air as much as possible

If Xtol is going to be your regular developer then depending on your film usage buy a 5L wine type box from a home brew shop or use an empty 5L wine box. That way when you extract the stock Xtol the bag collapses as the liquid is used and air is kept out

If you film usage is small then buy the IL pack of XT-3

If bottles are your preferred way then make sure that each bottle is use in one shot and if this isn't possible then get some inert gas such as butane and squirt some gas in to exclude any air if a bottle becomes partially empty

pentaxuser

 

[brbo]

We all (well, obviously not all) know about powdered developers, but I never thought that the problem with partial mixing would be so extreme.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

That was where you went wrong, sadly. I also tried to mix up "scaled down" XTol back in the late 90's, but failed. Mix the entire package up, and store in sealed containers. If you are concerned about economy, try XTol replenished, or diluted 1+1, both giving marvelous results.

 

[Kino]

I have Xtol stock that is over a year old that has been stored in airtight, amber glass bottles and it is still fine. I mix the 5 liters and place in 1 liter Kombucha growlers and store in dim light. Keep the stock solutions stock until just before using.

I have also used LegacyPro EcoPro Ascorbic Acid Powder (another Xtol clone) with good results in the past, if you need an alternative, but it also comes only in 5 liter powder form.

Never used the XT-3, but I would not hesitate to use it IF I needed only a 1 liter mix; just pick one and stick with it as there probably will be slight variations on development times between each.

However, I never fail to perform the "Xtol test" the day before I plan to develop any film. It has yet to fail, but when it does, I can mix a new batch and let it season overnight to insure homogeneity.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

That is smart, doing the XTol test before developing film. I have a drawer full of scrap film to do this. Happy to report, that I have never had a bad reading. Best to be safe, than sorry...

 

[Neal]

I use these.

 

[retina_restoration]

There were two packages. I did everything scaled down 1/10. The original directions are: add part A (244g), add 4L water, add part B (270g), top off to 5L.

I took 24g of A, added 400mL of water, added 27g of part B, topped that off to 500mL.

Nope. Make it exactly as directed, creating a 5 liter stock solution. Deviating from the directions will produce undesirable results, as you've experienced. Find a way to measure and store the full 5 liters.

 

[Milpool]

It’s never a good idea to sub-divide powder packets, but it’s especially bad if the developer is based on a Phenidone (as is XTOL) because there is comparatively such a small amount of that compound in the mix.

XTOL in particular makes this practice an even riskier proposition. (1) packet A contains the important iron/copper chelating agent - again a comparatively small amount. (2) packet B contains sodium bisulfite to bring the pH down to target and there is much less of it than the other components of packet B, so the final pH could vary quite a bit from target depending on the proportion of bisulfite you end up with when subdividing packet B. Etc.

 

[pentaxuser]

Just out of curiosity and not to raise any doubts by the OP that portion mixing for Xtol is really not a good idea, can anyone say if what he tried to do is much riskier than trying it with D76 with which some members have reported success using portion mixing

One of the reasons may be that Xtol is a 2 packet developer so getting the portions right becomes more difficult than with a one packet developer but are there other reasons connected to the "make-up" of Xtol

Thanks

edit: While writing and posting this Milpool answered my question

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Considering how often this subject comes up, I'm thinking about making this thread a Sticky thread.

Really? I figured it wouldn't have been considering you already might get minor errors with amounts. Are they really that sensitive?

What's the best way to mix XTOL in the full amount? I was a bit worried about "to make 5L" if I don't have something graduated with that capacity. I could use the distilled water jug maybe, replacing it with A, add 4 pitcher-fulls of 1L of the water, add B, then add another 1L?

If the 5 litre size is a challenge, you can mix and store a 4 litre volume of slightly stronger "super-stock".
But that would then necessitate diluting the stock further each and every time you use it to develop some film in order to have the XTol perform normally. Not a bad idea, just one that introduces another area where mistakes might be made.

 

[Sanug]

I mix Xtol as a 2:1 concentrate by using the half amount of water. Filled in brown glass bottles it has an extended shelf life. This cannot be done with D76.

 

[Milpool]

When the Photo Systems thing happened last year for what it’s worth I sent them a request to bring back 1l packets - including XTOL. I guess it would depend on demand but they did at least re-introduce 1l D-76. I would really like to see Dektol available in 1l packets again but XTOL would be nice too. I find 5l (XTOL) and 3.8l annoying.

 

[Sanug]

Adox XT-3 is available in 1 litre packages.

 

[ic-racer]

developed .. for 9.5 min,

Easy one, try 12 min next.

 

[pentaxuser]

I often wonder if a sticky will do any good. Matt. It seems to me that we have already pointed out to the OP why portíon mixing is risky to a greater or lesser extent depending on the powder's constituents and how each of us views those risks

In a sticky don't we all regurgitate what has already been?

pentaxuser

 

[Sirius Glass]

Title says most of it, but I exposed 2 different ways, as metered and auto flash, and both gave similarly thin results.

I just a Canon Demi EE17 and wanted to test it with some B&W. I first checked the internal meter against a metering app and found it was accurate so I trusted it. I set it to EI 80 and shot mostly on auto. Later, I checked the shutter speeds and found they were quite uniformly (from the slowest speed to the highest) 2/3 stops too slow. So, in total, besides the long exposures and flash, all the auto shots are actually overexposed 1 stop from box speed.

The chandelier up top was the brightest object and the sky in the other frames didn't get nearly as dense. Sky usually gets quite dense on my previous (HP5+, Delta 100 all with the CS Monobath DF96):

View attachment 384909

Here are two exposures of NY. I recall the 2nd was wide open at 8 sec (I think I metered around 1s with my phone):

View attachment 384912

1st was just on auto on a brightly lit train platform at night; 2nd was done with an auto flash, so it wouldn't be affected by any inaccuracy in the shutter, bounced off the ceiling:

View attachment 384911 View attachment 384910

Additionally, the exposed leader was dark but it wasn't nearly as dark as my other B&W rolls. All these negatives are mostly close to the density of the borders.

For dev, I was testing some powder XTOL that I got and I hadn't used yet. I was only using DF96 for B&W before and the Arista 3 bath E6 for slides which I've been having way too much fun with.

I mixed the XTOL as directed, but cutting the volumes and masses to 1/10 to make 500ml stock. Made a 1:1 working solution and prepared Ilford rapid fixer at 1:4, as directed. Washed the film for almost a min, developed at room temp, maybe higher (68-70F), for 9.5 min, washed with a lot of water (7 changes), then fixed for 5 minutes. Then I washed again and added some Photo-flo.

Is there a reason I should be getting negatives as thin as this? I try to err on the side of overexposure for negatives and my monobath ones haven't home out anywhere near this thin.

I have the same problem so I add one minute to the 20°C development time for all Ilford films.

 

[GregY]

If you proportionally mixed dry chemicals which were packaged to make 5 litres, then you didn't "mix as directed."
It doesn't matter how you metered or what development time you gave the film, because there's no way for you to know what part of the chemicals didn't get into your mix.
*For the record, it's not just photo chems.....it wouldn't turn out well with any other packaged dry ingredients....like cake mix

 

[john_s]

In the past I have mixed Xtol in half the quantity of water, then diluted it appropriately for use. It took a while to dissolve, and it is apparently important that part A be completely dissolved before adding part B.