Fujihunt X-Press C41 long storage

Mozg31337 · Apr 24, 2018

Hello everyone,

I've got a question in the long term storage of the Fujihunt X-Press C41 kit. According to the manuals it should last up to 8 weeks once opened. Are they talking about the mixed solution or the concentrate?

Also, if I have the Tetenal oxidising spray can, would the use of it prolong the mixed and concentrate solutions?

How long can the concentrate last before it goes bad?

Thanks

halfaman · Apr 25, 2018

C-41 concentrates last a very long time, even opened. I have used developer concentrates for 8-9 months without any noticeable problem. Bleach is forever and fixer depends on the particular formulation (preservants, not the hypo). Tetenal fixer part of blix has a poor durability in my experience

If you want to maximize their life I would suggest cold storage in a fridge (not freezer). I think it is easier and better than using inert gases.

mnemosyne · Apr 26, 2018

The numbers are for the mixed solutions, Put the stuff in wine bags and will last a very long time. Don't store opened concentrates, always prepare the full five liters at once.

Mozg31337 · Apr 27, 2018

Very interesting. I would have thought that an unmixed, but properly sealed concentrate solution would last longer than a mixed one. Like the stuff you buy in closed bottles should have a pretty long shell life before you open it. What if I do a vacuum packing or the Protectan spray or collapsible bottles for the concentrate solutions? Would it not last longer than a mixed solution?

RPC · Apr 27, 2018

After you mix the developer, the developing agent is protected from oxidation by a preservative. This fact, and proper storage, means the mixed developer can actually have a life longer than the unopened concentrates. I store Kodak color developers in full, glass, tightly sealed jars and have gotten many, many months of life out of them with no noticeable degradation. The preservative protects the developer from oxygen in the air dissolved in the developer solution, while the glass protects it from the air outside the bottle. I would bet the Fuji developer life is similar.

BMbikerider · Apr 27, 2018

My last C41 developer was marketed under the name of Rolliebase. It was a 2,5 litre kit and I mixed the whole lot (Developer only) at once. The 1.5 litres were decanted into 150cc glass bottles (Enough for a 36 exp 35mm film) and the remaining 1 litre was decanted into 2 x 500cc bottles and split down when needed into smaller bottles. All the bottles had screw tops with an airtight seal. The developer was used as and when I needed it and I have just finished the final drop. Considering I diluted it on the 23rd July last year I think it has proved it's worth to do it again.

Before sealing the bottles I heated the mix to about 40 degrees C then fitted the screw tops. As it cooled the small air gap at the top was forced to create a partial vacuum which helped to preserve it. Even to the last, the density of the negatives was more or less the same and there was little colour balance change

halfaman · Apr 27, 2018

One quick question... If the mixed developer has such wonderful keeping properties, why Kodak and Tetenal present it in three separate concentrates? Why not a single concentrate like the bleach and fixer?

mnemosyne · Apr 27, 2018

halfaman said:
One quick question... If the mixed developer has such wonderful keeping properties, why Kodak and Tetenal present it in three separate concentrates? Why not a single concentrate like the bleach and fixer?

Because most likely the C41 developer concentrates will keep better that way as long as they are sealed. Why the mixed working solution will keep better than separate concentrates once the bottles have been unsealed has been already explained in this thread

RPC · Apr 27, 2018

The developer would have a much shorter life if mixed and concentrated.

David Lyga · Apr 30, 2018

My experience is that, even fully diluted, the developer lasts forever in either glass or PET plastic, sealed to the very rim. - David Lyga

halfaman · May 4, 2018

mnemosyne said:
Because most likely the C41 developer concentrates will keep better that way as long as they are sealed. Why the mixed working solution will keep better than separate concentrates once the bottles have been unsealed has been already explained in this thread

According to Tetenal published MSDS sheets, CD-4 is in Part 2 concentrate and it already has the preservative agent (sodium sulfite). It is also in acidic form (pH 4.3), which is the best way to keep color developer in solution according to PE. Better than in an alkaline working solution once mixed.

CD Part 2 contains the hydroxylamine also in acidic form (pH 3.5) and Part 3 is the only alkaline solution doing functions of pH correction and starter. None of them have problems of shelf life as far as I know.

mnemosyne · May 4, 2018

halfaman said:
According to Tetenal published MSDS sheets, CD-4 is in Part 2 concentrate and it already has the preservative agent (sodium sulfite). It is also in acidic form (pH 4.3), which is the best way to keep color developer in solution according to PE. Better than in an alkaline working solution once mixed.

CD Part 2 contains the hydroxylamine also in acidic form (pH 3.5) and Part 3 is the only alkaline solution doing functions of pH correction and starter. None of them have problems of shelf life as far as I know.

This thread is not about Tetenal product, but about Fuji product. I will not dispute what you claim is your personal experience (pour shelf life of working solution) with Tetenal, but it is in stark contrast to what the great majority of other users (including me) who use Fuji and Kodak multi part products have experienced and reported here in numerous threads, namely that the CD-4 concentrate will go off quickly after opening while the mixed replenisher or working solutions of the developer are indeed quite stable for at least several months when kept in appropriate fashion.

RPC · May 4, 2018

An old Kodak C-41 kit label of mine shows part A having the sulfite and carbonate, part B having the hydroxylamine sulfate, and part C having the CD-4 and sodium bisulfite to acidify it.

Regardles of brand, when mixed the hydroxylamine sulfate acts as a preservative and protects the CD-4 from oxidation along with sulfite.

It would appear that the CD-4 and hydroxylamine sulfate cannot be mixed in concentrate bottles for whatever reason.

halfaman · May 4, 2018

Sorry, just trying to apply some logic.

PE clearly stated in another thread that color developer in three parts concentrates presentation has better keeping properties than in a single part concentrate. Now here that the working solution, where the three parts are mixed with water, has better keeping properties than the three parts concentrates (even unsealed).

Something does not fit in my mind.

Photo Engineer said:
As for a single part developer kit, a color developing agent keeps best in solution when it is acidic. It also keeps best when in the presence of sulfur dioxide or sulfite ion. Therefore, color developer in a liquid kit keeps best in a solution of acid (sulfuric or hydrochloric) and sulfur dioxide or sodium sulfite. A single part kit is alkaline, and therefore keeping is pretty poor. But then again, we come to the different intended customers. If you use developer in a hurry and with big throughput, a single part kit is good. When you are using the kit a bit at a time, a 3 part kit is best.

PE

RPC · May 4, 2018

I would guess that even though the CD-4, in a 3-part kit is in acidic environment in its concentrate bottle, that doesn't mean the liquid is free of oxygen dissolved in it. Even in the more acidic environment, the oxygen would eventually take its toll. In the normally mixed developer, the preservative which has been mixed in may completely consume all the oxygen dissolved in the solution. Therefore, even in the alkaline environment, after mixing, the CD-4 does not oxidize to an appreciable degree. That is why it is necessary to seal the glass container completely, to keep out additional air for a very long life.

In a single part concentrate, you have the same problem of oxygen dissolved in the solution, but this time it is in a very alkaline environment, and life is much shorter than a 3-part kit. The preservative my not be able to protect it as effectively in this concentrated, high alkaline environment. The container material used may also be a factor in allowing oxidation.

halfaman · May 11, 2018

Sorry for this late answer, read it but too busy this week with other things to write back.

I just made a quick test to probe your point with Tetenal and Compard Digibase kits I have mixing the concentrates partially. I have measured the pH without adding water (single part concentrate) and after adding water (working solution).

The single part concentrate and the working solution have the same pH, Compard pH was already 10 in the form of single concentrate (optimum for procesing according to Kodak C-41 documentation) and Tetenal was higher around 11. The addition of water doesn't modify the alkalinity, so the argumen oft "high alkaline enviroment" is not correct.

There are things in the market like Tetenal SP45 that it is a working solution without starter that does not need further dilution, but it is also true that they are intented for labs that will pour them completely into a tank once opened. A completely different game than what we do in our darkrooms.

Taking all this into account, what would makes sense for me is the following: At same conditions, 3-Part concentrates have better keeping properties than a single part concentrate or working solution. Once the concentrates bottles are opened is better to keep the CD as working solutions or single concentrate in airtight containers of a volume you will always use completely. How does that sounds?

RPC · May 11, 2018

As I said in my post, what I was saying was pretty much a (educated) guess. The part in question was based on what PE said concerning alkalinity. It is likely there are other factors involved, but difficult to say without knowing the exact make-up of the single part concentrate. They are packing a lot of chemistry into a small volume, so who knows what kinds of chemical effects may occur. Perhaps they don't or can't put as much preservative in a single-part concentrate. If they use plastic instead of glass, that could be a factor. All I can say is that it is a known fact that single-part concentrates keep poorly, while mixed working solutions, at least from 3-part kits, keep extremely well, stored properly.

To answer your last question I would always mix all of the developer and store it properly for longest life as opposed to storing any type of concentrate, but if you use the concentrates in a timely fashion then long life becomes a moot point.

sillo · Nov 24, 2020

I just want to bump this thread with some info. I stupidly decided to mix 1L at a time from concentrate as I needed it. By the third batch (2 month after opening the concentrates) my Part C developer concentrate had become noticeably discolored and the developer I mixed showed poor results. The concentrate was stored in the original bottle with bloxygen (argon gas) sprayed in to displace any oxygen. This bad batch produced underdeveloped negatives with a red shift in my scans.

If I go the Fuji 5L route again I will absolutely be mixing the entire 5L batch from the beginning and splitting those into separate 1L bottles as needed. Luckily my kit isn't a complete bust since I can still get plenty of use from the bleach and fix.

kevs · Nov 25, 2020

PET plastic bottles designed to store fizzy drinks are very good at keeping oxygen away from photographic chemicals for years. The lids MUST be airtight though, and squeeze out as much air as possible from partly-filled bottles.

Mesabound · Nov 27, 2020

sillo said:
I just want to bump this thread with some info. I stupidly decided to mix 1L at a time from concentrate as I needed it. By the third batch (2 month after opening the concentrates) my Part C developer concentrate had become noticeably discolored and the developer I mixed showed poor results. The concentrate was stored in the original bottle with bloxygen (argon gas) sprayed in to displace any oxygen. This bad batch produced underdeveloped negatives with a red shift in my scans.

If I go the Fuji 5L route again I will absolutely be mixing the entire 5L batch from the beginning and splitting those into separate 1L bottles as needed. Luckily my kit isn't a complete bust since I can still get plenty of use from the bleach and fix.

Bummer. I just mixed this kit 2-3 weeks ago and had originally planned to go this route, but luckily came across the info re: Part C at the last minute. I have 1L of each solution in Jobo bottles that I'm planning on running ~15-20 rolls through (time dependent), while the rest are decanted across 1L glass bottles w/ polyseal caps (except the bleach, which I've just got in a beer growler+gallon jug).

Radost · Jan 18, 2022

So once you mix all 5 liters can you develop and keep developing from the 5 liter chemicals or you have to break the solution you work with in a small container size bottle let’s say a liter and replenish?

sillo · Jan 18, 2022

There's a few options depending on how you are going to use it. IMO...
-If you just going to use it 1 liter at a time until exhaustion I would mix it all and divvy it up into 5 1 liter bottles.
-If you're going to replenish I would mix it all and put it into a 5 liter wine bag (I like astra pouches). Use 1 liter as your working solution in a 1 liter container and replenish from the wine bag. They're very good for precise dispensing so they should make replenishing easy.
-If you're using it one shot I would go the wine bag route too.

Radost · Jan 18, 2022

sillo said:
There's a few options depending on how you are going to use it. IMO...
-If you just going to use it 1 liter at a time until exhaustion I would mix it all and divvy it up into 5 1 liter bottles.
-If you're going to replenish I would mix it all and put it into a 5 liter wine bag (I like astra pouches). Use 1 liter as your working solution in a 1 liter container and replenish from the wine bag. They're very good for precise dispensing so they should make replenishing easy.
-If you're using it one shot I would go the wine bag route too.

Can I just keep everything in 5 liter jugs and use 600ml at the time and put it back in the 5liter?
Is that what you mean by one shot?

sillo · Jan 18, 2022

Personally I wouldn't. You'd be introducing a lot more oxygen into the large batch by opening, closing and dumping chemistry back and forth that it will most likely go off quicker.

One shot is using a specific amount of chemistry once and then tossing it. It's really only economical if you're using a rotary processor since they use much less chemistry than normal development tanks and hand inversions.

Radost · Jan 18, 2022

It is very confusing about the longevity of the chemicals.
Every body has different opinions.
My only reason for buying 5L is because it was the only option that has bleach and fix separated.
And honestly I can keep buying smaller Rollei C41 chems if I can preserve the bleach and fix from Fuji Hunt.
Is there an official trusted source about the shelf life of mixed fuji hunt c41 chemicals?
The problem is so many opinions are not even in the ball park of each other.

sillo said:
Personally I wouldn't. You'd be introducing a lot more oxygen into the large batch by opening, closing and dumping chemistry back and forth that it will most likely go off quicker.

One shot is using a specific amount of chemistry once and then tossing it. It's really only economical if you're using a rotary processor since they use much less chemistry than normal development tanks and hand inversions.

Fujihunt X-Press C41 long storage

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