GAF (Ansco) Permadol developer formula?

Mark Crabtree · Feb 16, 2014

I was given a lot of old GAF (and Dupont) chemistry a while back and have found most of it usable and useful. A few rusty cans have gone bad, but most of it is fine.

I recently decided to try out the GAF Permadol for tank developing 4x5 sheets and am very happy with the results. I have a couple gallons here and believe I have more available.

I would like to use this replenished since that is what I usually do for this type of work, however I don't have any replenisher. Does anyone (Ian??) know what Ansco formula that is? If I knew that, I could just scratch mix some replenisher. I've looked through all my old books, and just based on the description my best guess is the Ansco 48M shown here
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
Anso 17 sounds more like Isodol, not sure about the 47.

Described on the can as "a standard sheet film developer for general use.." No mention of fine grain, which usually means it is not, but results aren't particularly grainy.

I have lots of other options on ways to develop, but would like to try replenishing this stuff if I have can get an idea what it is.

removed account4 · Feb 16, 2014

good luck figuring this out mark

i am a fan of gaf universal developer
but have never figured out what it was
seeing it might have originated an old
agfa formula, then agfa-ansco. then ansco, and then ... gaf
and there wasn't much continuity between companies and formula names ..

Mark Crabtree · Feb 16, 2014

I've seen your old posts about that but may go back and read them again since I'm getting pretty familiar with this stuff.

A friend was cleaning out his garage and going to dispose of a bunch of old chemistry. He had found some old Agfa Ardol for me before and I told him I would take any of that he had. He said he bring a variety of what he had to a music festival I was attending near where he lived. He showed up with the bed of his truck covered just over one layer deep in boxes of old chemistry! I had 2 other people, 3 fiddles, and a guitar with me so couldn't even get it all in my car.

Mark Crabtree · Feb 17, 2014

Here's my first test shot with Permadol (after dialing in the time). This is Jean at the little store she runs a few blocks from my house. There is virtually no business anymore, but she goes in everyday and enjoys talking to the people who stop in.

Jean puts up with every new camera and lens I want to try out. I went by last Friday and shot this a couple others trying out my 4x5 Crown Graphic with #5 bulbs. Flash bulbs are a new experience for me (other than snapshots as a kid). It is interesting to see how the flash changes your whole impression of the scene. I'm gaining some insight into the FSA work, and later work like Chauncey Hare.

GAF Permadol 8 1/4" @ 72 degress in a cut film tank. HP5 Plus aerial film. I had been processing in GAF Hyfinol so was comparing to that.

Jean #1 by Yew Piney, on Flickr

Mark Crabtree · Feb 18, 2014

As suggested in a PM, here is the info from my can of Permadol. That is the only info I've found on this so far; it seems to have fallen between the gaps in my older books.

"gaf Permadol
Film Developer"

"Permadol Developer is a long-lived, clean working solution, particularly adapted for the requirements of professional photographers. It is a standard sheet film developer for general use and gives excellent results in either tray or tank development."

mix in "water about 90-125F"

"USE: Average developing times at 68F with intermittent agitation:
Tank-5 minutes
Tray-4 minutes

When used without replenishment, approximately 45 sheets of 8x10" film (or equivalent area in other sizes) can be processed per gallon of Permadol Developer. Permadol Replenisher greatly extends the useful life of the solution."

"CONTAINS HYDROQUINONE, METOL, AND MILD ALKALI"

"ANSCO PHOTO PRODUCTS OF
GENERAL ANILINE & FILM CORPORATION

Ian Grant · Feb 18, 2014

It's probably Ansco 48M which was a new developer introduced during WWII, I have it published in a 1941 Agfa Anco & a1950 book of GAF formulae. Fits all the criteria perfectly.

Very similar description and has a replenisher, dev times are the same (minimum). It's a fast working developer so ideal for sheet film.

Ian

Mark Crabtree · Feb 18, 2014

Thanks for digging your books out for me. That was my best guess. Then I just noticed GAF formulas in my fairly modern Photo Lab Index. It had nothing on the commercial products (gone by then), but did have formulas with info. The Ansco 47 seemed a better fit by the description there. GAF/Ansco 47 uses Sodium Carbonate and GAF/Ansco 48M uses Sodium Metaborate.

If I guess wrong am I likely to just see a slow drift with replenishment, or is the difference in alkali going to really knock something wildly out of kilter? I can run a max of 12 sheets of 4x5 at a time, so a slow drift wouldn't be a big deal. That is only a couple ounces of replenisher to my gallon of developer even on a full run.

I realize this is all a little silly, but I like using this old stuff. Everything used in the shot I posted above was out of date, including the photogapher. While I have pretty high standards, it's not like I'm doing commercial work where a screw up would be a big deal.

From my Photo Lab Index with pages showing a Copyright of 1983:

GAF 47 - also called Ansco 47 in the table of contents:
"This is a long-life, clean-working formula which will give excellent results for either tray or tank development. It is a standard sheet film developer."

GAF 48M - also listed as Ansco 48M
"This formula is recommended for photofinishing, professional and amateur developing and is suitable for deep tank use over a long period of time."

Development times given are a minute longer for GAF 47, with the minimum times listed for GAF 48M being exactly like the recommended times on my can.

Ian Grant · Feb 18, 2014

This is from GAF literature about Permadol and better matches the GAF & Ansco formulae books description of Ansco 48M:

"A new formula designed especially for professional photographers and to fit the needs of the photofinisher. It is a superb sheet film developer for use in either trays or tanks. Average developing time, about 5 minutes. Permadol is a clean-working developer which has extremely long life."

Ansco/GAF make no mention of professional use or photofinishing for Ansco 47 it's also an older formula where as Ansco 48M was a new one designed specifically for larger scale use in photofinishing.

Ian

Mark Crabtree · Feb 18, 2014

Thank you again. That sounds exactly right and reassures me a bit. I'll give the 48M replenisher a try. The times already seemed like good indication.

Mark

Christiaan Phleger · Feb 19, 2014

The description is very similar to Kodak DK-50. Come to think of it 48M looks preeetty close: Metol 1.5g vs 2.0, same HQ, same Sod.Metaborate and Pot. Bromide. More Sulfite in 48m, 40g vs 30g. So I would say once you start getting close to the end of your Permadol you can start doing tests using DK-50/48M and I'm certain you'll dial it in. What's nice is that you've found a good replacement (with replenisher!). Not so with other developers.

removed account4 · Feb 19, 2014

hi mark...

dont forget when the deep tank was king
( think portrait studios of the 40-50-60s)
they seasoned the tank to take the edge off
with a bunch of process runs without replenishing
and when they mixed a new batch, after the tank
had its capacity done with with replenishing, they'd
leave a third of the tank olde to mellow the tank new ...
a lot of
folks who use these great developers forget
about the whole mellowing technique
( touched upon in the harvey's panthermic 777 article on the unblinkingeye site )
and their negative's contrast is kind of hot ...
http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Harvey/harvey.html

while ive only used dk50/50r i can speqk from my experience
using that strange brew ( and my own
strange world of sum 130 ) ,,, dk 50
( and maybe your developer) made sweet film
it might be something to consider ..

great portrait btw!

john

Mark Crabtree · Feb 19, 2014

Thanks for the input guys. Yes, many of these formulas are very similar across brands. I have a 1964 copyright Pocket Photo Data Book that talks about that and often only gives one formula, referencing the others. I don't think DK-50 is an equivalent, but I'm sure would be a dandy substitute. I have/had a couple old cans of DK-50, and that is actually what I intended to mix instead of the Permadol. I laid the can out then "organized" the rest of my shelves of chemistry. I've still not found that can of DK-50 and am beginning to think I imagined it. I have one other smaller one, but it is such a fabulous looking old can that I couldn't get myself to open it, plus the issue of only having that small quantity.

Anyway, the Permadol works a treat. As John mentions, I was expecting to do some seasoning, though simply adjusting your time until the tank seasons works fine. But my times ended up falling in a nice range right off. I actually bumped up the times a fair bit. I think this is mostly due to the HP5 Plus aerial film I'm using, plus the flash flattening things out. The HP5 Plus aerial seems very different than the standard HP5 Plus emulsion. I compared 4x5 and 8x10 sheets of the two in the past. HP5 Plus already needs a fairly long development, and this stuff seems to require quite a bit more. I believe it was notable as one of the only aerial films with standard panchromatic sensitivity; a nice thing because I bought a lot of it right before they shut the line down (in France for some reason, or so I was told by the rep).

And I suspect I'm in no real danger of running out of Permadol. I recall sending boxes of it back with my friend since I didn't have room for it in the car that day.

eclarke · Feb 19, 2014

I'll see if my Brother in Law can find out. He was tech services and QC manager at GAF. He's still in touch with all his old cronies.

eclarke · Feb 19, 2014

Too bad, all those guys are long gone now, he can't help.

Mark Crabtree · Feb 19, 2014

Yeah, it has been a long time. Sort of nice that those old cans of developer still seem fine. I really like the Ardol print developer, and recently mixed some Dupont 53 D print developer. I believe the 53 D is supposed to be D72, but it sure doesn't act like Dektol, or like the GAF equivalent Vivadol. I think all these companies must have had their own twists on the published formulas, maybe even just for some practical reason. With print developers it can really make a difference. The 53D looks to be making some wimpy paper I have really come to life.

With film developers slight changes don't usually make any practical difference once you figure out your developing time.

Werewolfman · Dec 15, 2018

Mark Crabtree said:
As suggested in a PM, here is the info from my can of Permadol. That is the only info I've found on this so far; it seems to have fallen between the gaps in my older books.

Permadol is Ansco's alternative to Kodak:s DK-60a. It's basically the ssme developer, but the contents of the can isn't separated, as with Kodak.

"gaf Permadol
Film Developer"

"Permadol Developer is a long-lived, clean working solution, particularly adapted for the requirements of professional photographers. It is a standard sheet film developer for general use and gives excellent results in either tray or tank development."

mix in "water about 90-125F"

"USE: Average developing times at 68F with intermittent agitation:
Tank-5 minutes
Tray-4 minutes

When used without replenishment, approximately 45 sheets of 8x10" film (or equivalent area in other sizes) can be processed per gallon of Permadol Developer. Permadol Replenisher greatly extends the useful life of the solution."

"CONTAINS HYDROQUINONE, METOL, AND MILD ALKALI"

"ANSCO PHOTO PRODUCTS OF
GENERAL ANILINE & FILM CORPORATION

Werewolfman · Dec 15, 2018

It's Kodak Developer DK-60A under a different manufacturer.

Werewolfman · Nov 27, 2019

Ansco Isodol is the equivalent to Kodak DK-50. Ansco Permadol is the equivalent to Kodak DK-60A. Both developers are used in the same manner. Ansco 17 is the equivalent to Kodak D-76. Those are the facts!

Ian Grant · Nov 27, 2019

Werewolfman said:
Ansco Isodol is the equivalent to Kodak DK-50. Ansco Permadol is the equivalent to Kodak DK-60A. Both developers are used in the same manner. Ansco 17 is the equivalent to Kodak D-76. Those are the facts!

Ansco 17 is the same formula as Agfa 44, Agfa 19 is their version of D76 which was made but just about every company.

Like Adox Borax MQ, Agfa 44 (Ansco 17) gives slightly finer grain, less loss of film speed, better sharpness than D76, this is due to the lower more optimal level of Sulphite.

IAn

GAF (Ansco) Permadol developer formula?

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