Gold and platinum toned vandyke

jisner · Friday at 7:19 PM

I have been making gold thiourea-toned vandyke prints following the instructions in Sandy King's Unblinking Eye article, and have gotten good results. Now I want to try platinum toning for a more neutral tone.

First question: In the toning step of Sandy's workflow, can I simply substitute Potassium Tetrachloroplatinate 20% solution (mixed following Bostick & Sullivan's kit instructions) for the gold thiourea, keeping everything else the same?

Second question: Sandy's article says that toning "begins first in the highlights, proceeds to the mid-tones, and ends with the shadows." The B&S kit instructions say the platinum 'starts with the shadows ... and works its way up the ladder”. I wonder if one of these statements is in error. If, as I suspect, both metals work from highlights to shadows, then it should be possible to impart a warm tone to the highlights by partially toning with gold first, and a cool tone to the shadows by finishing off with platinum.

revdoc · Saturday at 1:20 AM

Platinum toner is made with 0.5% citric acid. With a 20% platinum solution, I add 1 drop per 20ml of citric acid solution. I generally just make up 20ml at a time and make it up fresh again when toning stops. (Usually after a couple of prints.)

Store it away from light. Exposure will make the platinum precipitate out to a fine black sediment. When that happens, it's dead.

I find that it tones from the lightest tones down. If you tone too long, you'll get yellow stained highlights. For me, that happens at about the six minute mark, so I stop toning at 5 minutes.

Split toning is definitely possible, as you have already worked out. You can use a warmer tone gold toner with platinum, and you can also use a cold tone gold toner with a warm tone one. There are a lot of possible variations.

koraks · Saturday at 3:37 AM

jisner said:
I wonder if one of these statements is in error.

Likely both. I see this kind of statement a lot. I've never been able to reproduce any of it. What I do acknowledge is that the shift in hue appears stronger in some part of the image, depending on what you're looking for. You have to keep in mind that the tonal scale is in reality an exponential scale of material density. If you unleash a chemical onto that material that converts it (bleaching, toning etc.), it will more or less evenly attack the material it has access to. But because there is just much less material in an absolute sense in the upper part of the tonal scale, you generally see a bigger proportional change in that part of the scale as things progress.

What also helps is that the human eye is generally more sensitive to color changes in bright conditions (photopic vs. scotopic vision). This generally makes color changes easily perceptible if they happen in a bright area. This can be the highlights of an image, but depending on the working conditions (illumination of your work space/tray), this may also be the midtones or even upper shadows. After all, the very upper parts of the tonal scale, i.e. the most delicate highlights, may be so thin that it's difficult to see how they differ hue-wise from the paper base - so these effects to an extent run counter to each other.

Then there's the issue of individual sensitivity to certain hues, which are both physically (what you can see) and psychologically determined (what you're looking for), which can make a difference in how you perceive toning processes. This is also influenced by metamerism in particular in relation to the lighting conditions during toning.

Finally, coming back to the chemical background, there are differences in physical image structure between papers and even developers (if you're talking about DOP prints) that may result in differences in the rate at which toning progresses - although this mostly affects absolute speed and only to a lesser extent (if at all) the direction through the tonal scale.

If you factor in all of these aspects, the inevitable conclusion IMO is that our eyes are most likely playing several tricks at the same time on us. As a result, I'm not surprised that one person would be adamant that toning progresses from the highlights into the shadows, while another might argue the opposite even though they are looking that the exact same process.

Having said that, yes, split toning may be possible. You will likely end up realizing that the effects are quite subtle, and highly dependent on a specific workflow and specific materials. Test, test, test, and observe carefully.

FotoD · Saturday at 10:43 AM

jisner said:
it should be possible to impart a warm tone to the highlights by partially toning with gold first

I don't know which gold toner would give you warm tones?

Indirect thiocarbamide toning can work as a first warm toner though, if you only want to tone the highlights.

jisner said:
Now I want to try platinum toning for a more neutral tone.

You should be able to get very neutral tones with a gold toner. IME the most important factor when toning Vandykes is the humidity of the paper during exposure. A paper that's been exposed dry won't tone much no matter the concentration or time in the toner. That is true for both gold and platinum.

As usual, YMMV,

Dan Pavel · Saturday at 4:49 PM

My personal experience is that a gold-toned VDB, if toned to completion, seams to be a bit more neutral and its' blacks seams to be a bit darker than in a Pt/Pd. That's mainly because, as Koraks explained, the hue in Pt/Pd happens in the highlights and therefore it's more obvious. But, of course, that depends of a lot of factors and paper is one of the very important ones.

jisner · Saturday at 6:40 PM

revdoc said:
Platinum toner is made with 0.5% citric acid. With a 20% platinum solution, I add 1 drop per 20ml of citric acid solution. I generally just make up 20ml at a time and make it up fresh again when toning stops. (Usually after a couple of prints.)

Store it away from light. Exposure will make the platinum precipitate out to a fine black sediment. When that happens, it's dead.

I find that it tones from the lightest tones down. If you tone too long, you'll get yellow stained highlights. For me, that happens at about the six minute mark, so I stop toning at 5 minutes.

Split toning is definitely possible, as you have already worked out. You can use a warmer tone gold toner with platinum, and you can also use a cold tone gold toner with a warm tone one. There are a lot of possible variations.

Thanks for your suggestions. I make 1000 ml of gold toner following Sandy's receipe, use 30-40 ml for each 8x10 print, then discard it after use. I have been doing this even if I'm making more than one print, which is perhaps wasteful.

I'm glad you confirm that platinum, like gold, tones from the highlights down. B&S are wrong about this. If the image contains predominantly dark tones, would you need to tone longer than 5 minutes, and would doing so stain the highlights? These are things I'll have to try once I get the platinum toner.

jisner · Saturday at 6:58 PM

koraks said:
Likely both. I see this kind of statement a lot. I've never been able to reproduce any of it. What I do acknowledge is that the shift in hue appears stronger in some part of the image, depending on what you're looking for. You have to keep in mind that the tonal scale is in reality an exponential scale of material density. If you unleash a chemical onto that material that converts it (bleaching, toning etc.), it will more or less evenly attack the material it has access to. But because there is just much less material in an absolute sense in the upper part of the tonal scale, you generally see a bigger proportional change in that part of the scale as things progress.

What also helps is that the human eye is generally more sensitive to color changes in bright conditions (photopic vs. scotopic vision). This generally makes color changes easily perceptible if they happen in a bright area. This can be the highlights of an image, but depending on the working conditions (illumination of your work space/tray), this may also be the midtones or even upper shadows. After all, the very upper parts of the tonal scale, i.e. the most delicate highlights, may be so thin that it's difficult to see how they differ hue-wise from the paper base - so these effects to an extent run counter to each other.

Then there's the issue of individual sensitivity to certain hues, which are both physically (what you can see) and psychologically determined (what you're looking for), which can make a difference in how you perceive toning processes. This is also influenced by metamerism in particular in relation to the lighting conditions during toning.

Finally, coming back to the chemical background, there are differences in physical image structure between papers and even developers (if you're talking about DOP prints) that may result in differences in the rate at which toning progresses - although this mostly affects absolute speed and only to a lesser extent (if at all) the direction through the tonal scale.

If you factor in all of these aspects, the inevitable conclusion IMO is that our eyes are most likely playing several tricks at the same time on us. As a result, I'm not surprised that one person would be adamant that toning progresses from the highlights into the shadows, while another might argue the opposite even though they are looking that the exact same process.

Having said that, yes, split toning may be possible. You will likely end up realizing that the effects are quite subtle, and highly dependent on a specific workflow and specific materials. Test, test, test, and observe carefully.

As you say, "[toning] will more or less evenly attack the material it has access to. But because there is just much less material in an absolute sense in the upper part of the tonal scale, you generally see a bigger proportional change in that part of the scale as things progress." It seems so obvious when you put it this way, as well as for what you say about the subjectivity of human vision, the effect of ambient lighting, and so-on. And then there's dry down, so you won't really know what the print looks like until it's completely dry and you examine it under good white light. I have a special lamp that I use for this, and I'm going to take it into the darkroom so that I can periodically examine the print as it tones.

jisner · Saturday at 7:25 PM

FotoD said:
I don't know which gold toner would give you warm tones?

Indirect thiocarbamide toning can work as a first warm toner though, if you only want to tone the highlights.

You should be able to get very neutral tones with a gold toner. IME the most important factor when toning Vandykes is the humidity of the paper during exposure. A paper that's been exposed dry won't tone much no matter the concentration or time in the toner. That is true for both gold and platinum.

As usual, YMMV,

The humidity in my "studio" is currently 24%, and that's with a humidifier running. I don't humidify the paper prior to coating or exposure, and never have done so. In spite of this, my gold thiourea-toned vandykes are pinkish, and that's what I have been calling warm. It's certainly warmer than the brown of untoned vandyke. For the subjects I print, I don't like the pinkish tone, but I can imagine that it might be OK for other subjects. That's why I was hoping platinum would give a more neutral tone.

jisner · Saturday at 7:39 PM

Dan Pavel said:
My personal experience is that a gold-toned VDB, if toned to completion, seams to be a bit more neutral and its' blacks seams to be a bit darker than in a Pt/Pd. That's mainly because, as Koraks explained, the hue in Pt/Pd happens in the highlights and therefore it's more obvious. But, of course, that depends of a lot of factors and paper is one of the very important ones.

The consensus here seems to be that gold toning does not impart a warm hue, which runs counter to my experience with gold thiourea toning, which imparts a pink / warm taupe tone that I find objectionable, particularly in the highlights. The only reason I was considering switching to platinum was to get a more neutral tone, but platinum may be no better. I don't humidify the paper prior to coating or exposure. I'm using Arches Platine 145 gsm, but planning to switch to HPR. Before spending money on Platinum, I'd like to see if I can achieve the "neutral and darker blacks" with gold that you say I should be getting. That would be ideal.

FotoD · Saturday at 8:27 PM

jisner said:
The humidity in my "studio" is currently 24%, and that's with a humidifier running. I don't humidify the paper prior to coating or exposure, and never have done so. In spite of this, my gold thiourea-toned vandykes are pinkish, and that's what I have been calling warm. It's certainly warmer than the brown of untoned vandyke. For the subjects I print, I don't like the pinkish tone, but I can imagine that it might be OK for other subjects. That's why I was hoping platinum would give a more neutral tone.

I see. I guess for Arizona RH 24% is quite normal. But I if you could find a way to keep the paper humid during the exposure I'm sure you could have a more neutral tone with gold, or platinum for that matter.

jisner · Saturday at 8:34 PM

FotoD said:
I see. I guess for Arizona RH 24% is quite normal. But I if you could find a way to keep the paper humid during the exposure I'm sure you could have a more neutral tone with gold, or platinum for that matter.

I don't understand why humidity during exposure should make a difference, since I tone the print in the darkroom after clearing and before fixing. It seems like humidity during exposure would only alter the toning if there was gold in the sensitizer. I hadn't realized that this was another possibility until just now. Hah! I'll have to look into that.

koraks · Sunday at 2:16 AM

jisner said:
my gold thiourea-toned vandykes are pinkish, and that's what I have been calling warm. It's certainly warmer than the brown of untoned vandyke.

That's quite odd. My thiourea-gold toned VdB's gain density and turn more neutral.

jisner said:
I don't understand why humidity during exposure should make a difference

I can see how it will make a difference in the silver particle size you end up with. Humidity in the paper will act as a carrier for ions to complete a print-out reaction (VdB is partly POP, partly 'DOP' although there's no actual developer) and I can imagine that higher humidity will result in larger clumps of silver being formed during exposure. This will shift the tone to more neutral to begin with, and this may also affect how it tones.

Also, pinkish hues in gold-toned VdB's remind me of incomplete toning. Do you tone to completion? Mine go through a reddish stage early on in the toning process, but then start to gain density and turn neutral again. If I take out the prints during that first stage, I end up with something that resembles what you describe.

revdoc · Sunday at 4:55 AM

I find a VDB exposed very dry will tone to a pink-brown colour, and a VDB exposed with more moisture will tone to a much more neutral black. I've seen this a number of times. Generally the paper has to be pretty dry for it to happen.

@jisner said that his darkroom is at about 24%RH. That's very dry, and way drier than anything I see here in Sydney, so I'm not surprised that his prints tone the way they do.

My advice for a more neutral tone: don't dry the paper so much before exposure. I use a small fan for about 3 minutes at 60% RH. I'd use a lot less time at 24%. My test is that the paper is just starting to feel dry, but is still a little soft, and still feels cool.

Dan Pavel · Sunday at 7:34 AM

I get more neutral tones and a bit darker blacks by toning after fixing, washing and drying the VDB print. A very long toning, of 40 min.(with constant agitation), followed by collecting the toner, adding just a bit of water and letting it to rest in the tray for another 40 min.(without agitation). It worked well with Arches Platine and, lately, with acidified Fabriano Artistico extra white 640. The exposure time and the adjustment curve is computed for the fully toned VDB.
Somehow toning continues while the print is drying for 1-2 days and gets a bit darker and more neutral.

FotoD · Sunday at 1:41 PM

jisner said:
I don't understand why humidity during exposure should make a difference, since I tone the print in the darkroom after clearing and before fixing. It seems like humidity during exposure would only alter the toning if there was gold in the sensitizer.

The gold alone can't decide where and how to deposit itself in the paper, it needs silver grains to act on. In a print-out process those grains are formed and locked into the paper fibers during exposure.

The humidity will keep the silver grains in a state more favorable to toning. If the paper dries before clearing, that seems to be lost.

jisner · Sunday at 1:42 PM

koraks said:
That's quite odd. My thiourea-gold toned VdB's gain density and turn more neutral.

Also, pinkish hues in gold-toned VdB's remind me of incomplete toning. Do you tone to completion? Mine go through a reddish stage early on in the toning process, but then start to gain density and turn neutral again. If I take out the prints during that first stage, I end up with something that resembles what you describe.

What you say about incomplete toning is very interesting. In Sandy King's GTV article (which I follow), he says "Rinse the print in running water for about a minute after development, then tone.... It is recommended that the gold thiourea toner be used one-shot and discarded after use. Toning should be complete in about five minutes." Later, in the same article, he says that prints with large shadow areas may take much longer and require more solution. I have experimented with toning longer AND using more toning solution, but once the print reaches the pink color (which happens very quickly), it does not change. And Sandy's description of how the hue changes during toning (with agrees with your description) also does not describe what I'm seeing.

I do not seem to be able to attach a jpg (even one much less than the 2mb limit), so here is a link to one of my toned VDBs.

jisner · Sunday at 1:56 PM

FotoD said:
The gold alone can't decide where and how to deposit itself in the paper, it needs silver grains to act on. In a print-out process those grains are formed and locked into the paper fibers during exposure.

The humidity will keep the silver grains in a state more favorable to toning. If the paper dries before clearing, that seems to be lost.

Ah, now I understand. I clear the prints within five minutes of exposure, but as I said earlier, the prints are bone dry during exposure.

When I read Sandy King's article, I missed the following: "Vandyke, like kallitype and platinum/palladium, gives richer tones if coating and drying is carried out in conditions of high humidity, at least 50% RH in my experience. If the room conditions cannot be raised to an acceptable RH the paper can be moistened before sensitizing by holding it over a kettle of boiling water for a couple of minutes."

Sandy says "before sensitizing" and you suggest before exposing. I will try steaming the coated paper before coating and again before exposure.

FotoD · Sunday at 2:44 PM

Yes, both can help. Steaming before coating makes it easier to coat evenly, avoiding brush marks.

IME it's ok if the print gets bone dry between first and second steaming. But if it gets dry between second steaming and clearing it will affect image tone.

You can also make a simple humidity chamber; one tray with water and a larger one inverted as a lid. Then let the paper rest inside on a net.

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