Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

koraks · Nov 24, 2023

@Lachlan Young that's an interesting theory. Given what we know now, I think Harman have been eyeballing colour for quite a while now, off and on, and apparently got serious about it maybe a hanfdul of years ago. At that point they must have had a reasonable idea about feasibility and the major hurdles.

Let's see how their present product performs and what steps they'll take from here. It's all very exciting indeed, and a remarkable effort regardless.

Craig · Nov 24, 2023

I was talking to someone today and mentioned that Harman was having a big announcement soon and the speculation was that it was C41 film. Turns out this person does know what is coming and is under the embargo until the announcement

However, they gave me a big smile and said "I couldn't possible say if the speculation is correct" in a way that let me know it is exactly correct. So I think we can be very sure the announcement will be a C41 film.

Minolta93 · Nov 24, 2023

Craig said:
I was talking to someone today and mentioned that Harman was having a big announcement soon and the speculation was that it was C41 film. Turns out this person does know what is coming and is under the embargo until the announcement

However, they gave me a big smile and said "I couldn't possible say if the speculation is correct" in a way that let me know it is exactly correct. So I think we can be very sure the announcement will be a C41 film.

We've already seen the film packaging, it is indeed color film. It's 200ISO, too.

Craig · Nov 24, 2023

Minolta93 said:
We've already seen the film packaging, it is indeed color film. It's 200ISO, too.

We have? I missed that, I thought it was the rebranded film from the "other" Ilford that was shown.

BrianShaw · Nov 24, 2023

Craig said:
We have? I missed that, I thought it was the rebranded film from the "other" Ilford that was shown.

Some of us have.

bfilm · Nov 24, 2023

brbo said:
On the other hand, if this is a "limited edition" and basically a work in progress, publishing specs for each run would probably be counterproductive and confusing.

Are you suggesting they would change the film from batch to batch while maintaining the same release name? Hopefully, Harman won't be that experimental with it. Because otherwise, I don't see how it would be confusing to have a full data sheet. As long as they changed the name or even just made additions to the name, like generations or versions, for each change, then it would be easy enough to differentiate between the data sheets. The data sheets could even then serve as a record of the film's evolution.

BrianShaw · Nov 24, 2023

bfilm said:
Are you suggesting they would change the film from batch to batch while maintaining the same release name?

Basically that’s what was stated on the film box that some of us saw before it disappeared from the internet.

bfilm said:
The data sheets could even then serve as a record of the film's evolution.

If provided they will. Not sure what the value of historical records like that might be, though.

bfilm · Nov 24, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Basically that’s what was stated on the film box that some of us saw before it disappeared from the internet.

It seems like it would be bad practice to change the film batch to batch while keeping the same release name. A customer could never really know what they were getting then. I can understand if they want to do the limited edition so that they can work and improve the film. But it seems like any change to the emulsion should be released as a new film then, even if only as a generation 2 or version 2, etc.

Even releasing these experimental or work in progress films seems a bit weird to me and seems to be something characteristic of the new film era. I can't imagine the major manufacturers releasing something in the "old" days that they didn't feel was a high-quality finished product. But I know, and I am sure Harman knows, that people are anxious for new films, so I can somewhat understand the incremental improvement approach, as long as they explain well from the start that that is the plan. I am still hoping that this new film is pretty good from the start. Surely, Harman would want even the first effort to be good.

George Mann · Nov 25, 2023

Minolta93 said:
We've already seen the film packaging, it is indeed color film. It's 200ISO, too.

I can only hope that this film will be less grainy than the 200-ISO consumer grade junk that we are currently stuck with.

The color inconsistencies of these films is bad enough.

mshchem · Nov 25, 2023

bfilm said:
It seems like it would be bad practice to change the film batch to batch while keeping the same release name. A customer could never really know what they were getting then. I can understand if they want to do the limited edition so that they can work and improve the film. But it seems like any change to the emulsion should be released as a new film then, even if only as a generation 2 or version 2, etc.

Even releasing these experimental or work in progress films seems a bit weird to me and seems to be something characteristic of the new film era. I can't imagine the major manufacturers releasing something in the "old" days that they didn't feel was a high-quality finished product. But I know, and I am sure Harman knows, that people are anxious for new films, so I can somewhat understand the incremental improvement approach, as long as they explain well from the start that that is the plan. I am still hoping that this new film is pretty good from the start. Surely, Harman would want even the first effort to be good.

What if Harman just want's to make something their customers want ?

Limited doesn't necessarily mean a partial effort.

Kodak made so many different color film it's amazing, some of them were terrible, to my taste, Ektachrome SW, others loved this stuff.

bfilm · Nov 25, 2023

mshchem said:
What if Harman just want's to make something their customers want ?

Limited doesn't necessarily mean a partial effort.

Nothing wrong with making what their customers want. As I mentioned, people are anxious for new films. But it could change the reputation of Harman if they release something that is too much of a work in progress. Hopefully, they have made a good film.

Flighter · Nov 25, 2023

koraks said:
@Lachlan Young that's an interesting theory. Given what we know now, I think Harman have been eyeballing colour for quite a while now, off and on, and apparently got serious about it maybe a hanfdul of years ago. At that point they must have had a reasonable idea about feasibility and the major hurdles.

It does seem incremental looking at the employee numbers disclosed in their accounts over the last 10 years where the number engaged in R&D has remained relatively constant around 23 employees with a slight dip to 19 or 20 in 2016 and 2017.

Overrank · Nov 25, 2023

bfilm said:
It seems like it would be bad practice to change the film batch to batch while keeping the same release name.

It’s possible (likely ?) that the release name would change. From memory the inside of the box said something like this was the first new colour film made entirely from emulsion to cassette at the Harman factory, and the Phoenix name was to indicate that. For the next iteration of the film that would no longer be true so presumably they will choose a different name?

Flighter · Nov 25, 2023

Phoenix+ ?

Dustin McAmera · Nov 25, 2023

Phoenix → Gryphon → Unicorn?

( Unicorn ?)

George Mann · Nov 25, 2023

Flighter said:
Phoenix+ ?

Which would be more suitable for a 200-ISO film.

BrianShaw · Nov 25, 2023

Flighter said:
It does seem incremental looking at the employee numbers disclosed in their accounts over the last 10 years where the number engaged in R&D has remained relatively constant around 23 employees with a slight dip to 19 or 20 in 2016 and 2017.

Sometimes it’s not only about number of employees and more about what they’ve been directed and being paid to do. I once worked at a R&D company where the organizational mantra was, “ It doesn’t matter what you were trained or hired to do. If the boss wants to raise monkeys in Martinique that’s what you’re getting paid to do.” And for those who didn’t like that, the boss would remind us of the #1 employee benefit they offered: a job to come back to tomorrow!

A stable number, though, is indicative of organizational stability… a generally good thing.

koraks · Nov 25, 2023

BrianShaw said:
Basically that’s what was stated on the film box

Well, it didn't outright say that there would be unannounced batch-to-batch improvements. They imply improvements over time, but don't specify whether those will be launched as consecutive products or perhaps product generations, or if they'll occur as a steady improvement under the same name.

As to the R&D employees: @Flighter and @BrianShaw - valid points, both of you, I think. It makes me wonder if the dip around 2017 might be due to retirements, with the replacements being hired with a color project in mind. It would have been an organic way of inching in this direction while keeping the budget relatively stable.

foc · Nov 25, 2023

brbo said:
If you read my post closely, what I was basically asking is how do you know that original cassettes were not reloaded the same way. I always use original cassettes when I load my Vision3 film and tape the film to the stub of original film. When I'm done shooting the film is rewound into the cassette and looks exactly like any other OEM roll of film... I doubt I'm the only one using original cassettes for loading film from bulk rolls.

So, to repeat my question, if you only give special attention to re-loadable cassettes or even straight out refuse to process them, how do you prevent folks like me* to mess up your cutter or solution tanks with all kinds of tape?

* not literally "me" as I process all my film at home

For proprietary film cassettes that have been reloaded (eg a Fuji/Kodak C41 cassette with reloaded film taped to the film end sticking out) there is no way (that I know) of knowing when the film is presented for processing.

The first indication that this cassette was reloaded is when you hear the cutter being fouled and the tape stuck to a customer's film or floating in a tank or worse, blocking the circulation filters and heaters.

In that case I would look at the customer's address and then pay them a visit with a big stick. (joking of course)

BrianShaw · Nov 25, 2023

koraks said:
Well, it didn't outright say that there would be unannounced batch-to-batch improvements.

Nobody ever suggested or implied such a thing, except…

The box we saw stated that the released product was limited edition and would/may be iterating, that’s all.

koraks · Nov 25, 2023

Well, that's what @bfilm asked, and the possibility cannot be excluded upfront. But I doubt that would be their approach.

BrianShaw · Nov 25, 2023

Anything could be….

Given the current marketing style, I’m not too sure what to expect in the future…

Agulliver · Nov 25, 2023

bfilm said:
It seems like it would be bad practice to change the film batch to batch while keeping the same release name. A customer could never really know what they were getting then.

Because Kodak never, ever, changed Kodacolor.....

Ernst-Jan · Nov 25, 2023

Video with screenshots of the Reddit post.

Anon Ymous · Nov 25, 2023

6 days remaining. Not exactly for what it will be, but for other details about it.

Harman Photo cryptic announcement/teaser

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