How much do you get out of Kodak Flexicolor?

Mr Bill · Aug 28, 2020

Bormental said:
Then, on freestyle, I find this:
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/3667805-Kodak-FlexiColor-C-41-Developer-Makes-20-Liters

But there is no starter... Is this the "small tank one-shot developer" from CIS-211?

Hi, I looked at your Freestyle link. Although the Freestyle text simply calls it "C-41 Developer," there is also a photo of the box. The box is labeled as "Kodak Flexicolor developer replenisher." Note that the box includes the word "replenisher," which Freestyle neglected to say.

Anyway, the use of the word "replenisher" means that this is not suitable for direct use in developing film. It must first be converted to "tank solution," as we would say in the trade, in order to be used to actually develop film. So if you intend to use this product as a series of one-shot standalone developers then you should definitely buy a separate "starter" solution and follow the instructions on the starter bottle.

Bormental · Aug 28, 2020

@Mr Bill thanks, I noticed that too. But they do not sell a starter for it. Actually, I can't find a non-LORR Flexicolor starter anywhere, it only exists in the Z-131 PDF. So it's unclear to me whom are they selling this developer replenish e to, if there's no starter available for it.

I have a suspicion that this is actually a LORR developer/replenisher, despite what the box photo and the title say.

Mr Bill · Aug 28, 2020

Bormental said:
So it's unclear to me whom are they selling this developer replenish e to, if there's no starter available for it.

I'm sure there's a starter available for it, probably just not under the name you're looking for. In principle the same starter should be usable for either LORR or non-LORR; only the quantities and dilution will be different. These should be listed on the bottle of starter itself, or at least in instructions packaged with it.

So whatever Flexicolor starter you find will probably do the job. You might wanna verify first by finding a photo of the bottle to make sure it gives the appropriate instructions.

Bormental said:
I have a suspicion that this is actually a LORR developer/replenisher, despite what the box photo and the title say.

Nah... it's pretty reliable for Kodak to label LORR as LORR. If it doesn't say LORR anywhere I'd be pretty confident that it's not.

Tom Kershaw · Aug 28, 2020

I use the 20L Flexicolor developer with a starter and it works fine. From memory 875ml Flexicolor rep. + 20ml starter + water to make 1000ml. In a Jobo you should get about 4 rolls of 120 or 135-36 per litre so the 20L package will do more than 80 rolls of film.

destroya · Aug 29, 2020

I use the 20l kit from freestyle and have for years. I did not get a starter, but did sacrifice a few cheap fujicolor 200 rolls to season the developer just to be safe. not sure I needed to though. I replenish my developer and have been using the same working solution for years now and get great results. much cheaper than single shot. using 60ml replenish for each 35mm/120 roll, I get a lot more than 80 rolls . I mix up 2 liters at a time to use for replenishment and top off the stock bottles with butane to keep them fresh. 18 months in and they are still good.

this works for me. it might not for you. but the 20L developer box is a great thing to still be able to buy, along with the fuji hunt E-6 chems

john

doctorpepe · Sep 4, 2020

This is very helpful! Just to clarify that one replenishes the liter of the ”working” developer with 60ml of the ”developer replenisher” (mixed from ABC concentrates) and NOT replenish with a some of the unused ”working”, (diluted 1L solution) developer.

Kodak makes the language quite complicated, calling the developer, even the working solution a ”replenisher”!

I had been using R134 to force O2 out if the bottles as its heavier than butane, but R134 is probably less environmentally friendly!

Kp

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destroya said:
I use the 20l kit from freestyle and have for years. I did not get a starter, but did sacrifice a few cheap fujicolor 200 rolls to season the developer just to be safe. not sure I needed to though. I replenish my developer and have been using the same working solution for years now and get great results. much cheaper than single shot. using 60ml replenish for each 35mm/120 roll, I get a lot more than 80 rolls . I mix up 2 liters at a time to use for replenishment and top off the stock bottles with butane to keep them fresh. 18 months in and they are still good.

this works for me. it might not for you. but the 20L developer box is a great thing to still be able to buy, along with the fuji hunt E-6 chems

john

MattKing · Sep 5, 2020

doctorpepe said:
Kodak makes the language quite complicated, calling the developer, even the working solution a ”replenisher”!

Technically, replenisher + starter or seasoning = working strength developer.
The replenisher alone won't give you in specification results, so they don't call it developer.

foc · Sep 5, 2020

doctorpepe said:
Kodak makes the language quite complicated, calling the developer, even the working solution a ”replenisher”!

As MattKing has explained, the language is not complicated BUT some knowledge of the language of commercial processing is necessary as this is where Z131 leaflets is aimed at.

"KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Replenisher This developer is a long-time standard for processing Kodak color negative films in Process C-41. To make a fresh tank solution from this replenisher, use only KODAK FLEXICOLOR Developer Starter"

When you mix the box of Flexicolor chemicals, you are mixing a working solution of replenisher.
When you add a starter to the replenisher you have a tank solution.
Starters are used for developer and bleach replenisher.
The films are processed in the tank solutions and replenisher is added ( to replace the exhausted chemical ) in specific quantities as per the chemical instructions

mtjade2007 · Sep 11, 2020

destroya said:
I use the 20l kit from freestyle and have for years. I did not get a starter, but did sacrifice a few cheap fujicolor 200 rolls to season the developer just to be safe. not sure I needed to though. I replenish my developer and have been using the same working solution for years now and get great results. much cheaper than single shot. using 60ml replenish for each 35mm/120 roll, I get a lot more than 80 rolls . I mix up 2 liters at a time to use for replenishment and top off the stock bottles with butane to keep them fresh. 18 months in and they are still good.

this works for me. it might not for you. but the 20L developer box is a great thing to still be able to buy, along with the fuji hunt E-6 chems

john

I have used this 20 liter kit for more than 10 years. I did this once (without adding starter) and had obvious color crossover error. Not the way to go. By adding starter you will need to also add water according to Kodak instruction. This actually gives you more working developer in terms of volume. Starter is very cheap. Water is free. So doing it right by adding starter actually saves you money. It makes every sense to do it right.

mtjade2007 · Sep 11, 2020

As far as how much do you get out of Kodak Flexicolor developer everyone is telling it is a lot. Yes, you can develop a lot of rolls of film per liter or per 300 ml or whatever. I am not going to argue with anyone about the number everyone got. Rather, I would like to share an experience that was interesting. I use a Job ATL automatic processor so my film processing has always been consistent. I use a Minolta film scanner and it is a very consistent scanner too. I have processed hundred of rolls of 35mm, 120 and 220 roll. One day I processed a 5 frame only 120 promotion C-41 roll from Konica film. The film was so much shorter but I still had to use a same amount of developer for processing a full 220 roll. That 5 frame film came out so beautiful that got stuck in my brain forever. It was the best processing I ever achieved period. I have since changed my strategy in my film processing. I do not pursue max number of rolls of film per unit volume of developer despite a lot of people said it can be achieved. Rather, I pursue the best colors and try to use plenty of developer one shot without replenishing or over using the developer. It is such a joy seeing color crossover free films coming out of my processor.

Donald Qualls · Sep 23, 2020

Well, here we go.

A couple heavy boxes showed up on my porch today while I was at work. Flexicolor Developer Starter (1.2 L), Flexicolor LORR Developer replenisher (three pretty small bottles, to make 5L, they say), Flexicolor Bleach Replenisher (didn't note the actual volume, looks like a bit more than a gallon and it'll be diluted, IIRC), and Flexicolor Fixer Replenisher.

I've still got a Cs41 kit as backup, but I'll start using these chemicals immediately. Among other things, I've got one roll waiting and one in the camera of XP2 Super destined for bleach bypass, which you can't do with a blix kit unless you dig up how to mix the bleach and fixer separately (seems iffy to me, pH problems possible) -- with Flexicolor, I just don't pour bleach, straight from stop bath to fixer. I've also still got a dozen or so rolls of old film, exposed ten to fifteen years ago, waiting to be processed. And I have a plan to get the most out of my tank solution color developer: 8 rolls of color film, and then that solution is for XP2 Super only (no color casts or crossovers in a one-layer film) -- expect four to eight rolls, maybe more, of the XP2, extending development time as the color developer ages further, and leader testing every use. Doing things this way ought to come close to @David Lyga levels of economy.

Oh, yeah, gotta order some more XP2 Super...

Bormental · Sep 23, 2020

@Donald Qualls enjoy! Flexicolor chemistry is magic. I am loving the results I'm getting. BTW, I decided to play it safe and ordered the bleach starter, since Kodak's instructions require it.

Donald Qualls · Sep 24, 2020

@Bormental I've used the Flexicolor Bleach Replenisher without starter before. It works fine. The only place the starter is critical is in the color developer, to give "seasoning" so the developer acts as if it's been used and replenished for a while, thus to give the same results from a new tank as from one that's been running.

This means one of the weekend's projects is to do the arithmetic to determine how much of each bottle of Developer Replenisher to use to make a single liter batch of tank solution. Three different size bottles, have to produce 763 ml of replenisher, which gets mixed with a little starter and some water. I've seen this set out for "just in time" mixing somewhere, just have to find it again or do the proportions again for myself -- aha, here it is. I don't, however, plan to dilute below "tank solution" strength.

David Lyga · Sep 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
@Bormental I've used the Flexicolor Bleach Replenisher without starter before. It works fine. The only place the starter is critical is in the color developer, to give "seasoning" so the developer acts as if it's been used and replenished for a while, thus to give the same results from a new tank as from one that's been running.

This means one of the weekend's projects is to do the arithmetic to determine how much of each bottle of Developer Replenisher to use to make a single liter batch of tank solution. Three different size bottles, have to produce 763 ml of replenisher, which gets mixed with a little starter and some water. I've seen this set out for "just in time" mixing somewhere, just have to find it again or do the proportions again for myself -- aha, here it is. I don't, however, plan to dilute below "tank solution" strength.

The reason I have never used developer starter is because, with my 'economical' dilutions, I have always done this 'one shot'. Because of this one time use, starter was not needed. - David Lyga

halfaman · Sep 24, 2020

I use bleach starter also even PE said many times it is not really neccesary for manual processing (but you may need to extend the bleach time). With color processing I go by the book, I found some minilab chemicals rather cheap so no need to play. My C-41 developing cost in a Jobo using one shot chemistry mixed according to manufacturer instructions is now around 1€ per roll, which I find very reasonable.

Donald Qualls · Sep 24, 2020

David Lyga said:
The reason I have never used developer starter is because, with my 'economical' dilutions, I have always done this 'one shot'. Because of this one time use, starter was not needed. - David Lyga

But you still wind up with a more active developer than you would with starter (though your 1+9 dilution likely renders that change moot by overlaying it with a much larger change the other direction). Otherwise, even in a Jobo, where one-shot is the recommended way, you'd use starter to ensure you're meeting the Kodak spec for the activity level of the developer.

halfaman said:
I use bleach starter also even PE said many times it is not really neccesary for manual processing (but you may need to extend the bleach time). With color processing I go by the book, I found some minilab chemicals rather cheap so no need to play. My C-41 developing cost in a Jobo using one shot chemistry mixed according to manufacturer instructions is now around 1€ per roll, which I find very reasonable.

For those of us who use a hand inversion tank (like a Paterson) or, worse, process sheet film in a Yankee (55 ounces for one or more 4x5), one-shot isn't really practical if we don't want to dilute like David Lyga -- so we reuse the color developer (and there's no good reason not to reuse the bleach and fixer to capacity). But if you get 8 rolls out of a liter without worries about quality, you're actually doing at least as well as one-shot in a Jobo (300 ml?).

halfaman · Sep 24, 2020

I didn't realize about manual inversion or dip and dunk tanks. In that case reusing chemicals is highly convenient.

I use 125 ml per roll more or less in the Jobo. Normally I process full tanks, 2 rolls in a 1520 tank (250 ml) or 5-6 rolls depending on the format in a 1520+1530 tank (600-700 ml, 750 ml can overflow). I bought a Jobo CPE2 long time ago when everybody was getting rid of them in Europe and now I share a Jobo CPP3 and color chemistry in a very small photo club. It is the only way I have processed color material (also RA-4) and I can't think in other way to do it.

Donald Qualls · Sep 24, 2020

halfaman said:
I use 125 ml per roll more or less in the Jobo.

So about the same consumption as processing eight rolls in a liter by reuse. We're all on the same page here.

So, looks like this weekend I'll need to process at least three rolls of 35mm C-41 out of my backlog, possibly also a couple rolls of fresh bleach bypass. I suppose I'll need to order in some more color film; I'm down to the last eight or ten rolls of Superia Xtra 400 that I've had since 2007 or so, and I have just two rolls of 120 C-41 (and three of Ektachrome, plus one exposed and one in a camera).

And then there's RA-4 paper and chemistry to buy...

Mr Bill · Sep 24, 2020

Bormental said:
BTW, I decided to play it safe and ordered the bleach starter, since Kodak's instructions require it.

Donald Qualls said:
@Bormental I've used the Flexicolor Bleach Replenisher without starter before. It works fine.

I'd say it's more than likely primarily a pH adjuster, and it may be that some films are more susceptible to problems. Historically certain cyan dyes would be where bleach issues would show up, remaining partially in what they call the "leuco" state. If there are any problems, a follow-up bleach step (in a known-good bleach) should finish oxidizing the leuco dye, and the film will be back to normal. To be clear, I'm mostly guessing on this. But if I wanted to experiment (I don't) this is what I'd wanna look at.

In a "normal" process, film goes from the developer directly into the bleach, with the carryover developer raising the pH of the bleach in the processor tank. Consequently the bleach replenisher is formulated with a lower pH in order to counteract this. In Kodak's CIS-61 publication they give the Bleach III replenisher aim pH = 4.50 +/- 0.25, whereas the processor tank solution aim is 4.75 +/- 0.25. One can see that the tolerances can overlap, so maybe there's issues if the specific bleach happens to lean the other way, pH-wise. As I've mentioned before, my experience has been almost exclusively with an earlier version of the bleach, so I'm mainly guessing with the modern bleach.

halfaman said:
I use 125 ml per roll more or less in the Jobo.

Donald Qualls said:
So about the same consumption as processing eight rolls in a liter by reuse. We're all on the same page here.

I've mentioned this before, but if someone is using a "proper" replenished system with LORR developer replenisher they'll be getting about 5X more film - roughly 35 to 40 rolls per liter. And this is processing right to spec - not letting the developer weaken along the way. (Of course more heavily-exposed film would require a higher replenishment rate, reducing the "roll count. But this is the average, more or less.)

I realize that people running small amounts of film, such that the developer goes bad before it is used, won't care about this. I'm just giving a perspective on how things go with a commercial processor.

Donald Qualls · Sep 24, 2020

I agree, replenishment is where the real economy lies -- else there'd be another, cheaper way that commercial labs would use and would have used since the 1980s.

I, however, can even afford the amount of film it would take (never mind the time to expose that much in any sort of thoughtful manner) to run a line on replenishment -- as has been noted previously, a commercial line won't stay in spec if they aren't running at least several dozen rolls a day, and I'll only run, at most, that much in a year (probably not even that).

Now, the question is, with chemicals stored in airtight containers at room temperature between uses vs. in a processor that's necessarily open to air and kept at processing temperature at least most of the time, would the chemical life run long enough to make replenishment practical? I notice slightly different replenishment rates for different emulsions, never mind roll lengths (35mm), also -- so, if the chemicals will keep longer, would it be practical to replenish the developer (never mind the bleach and fixer -- bleach regen and replenishment are no big deal, and fixer is cheap enough to use up and discard)?

MattKing · Sep 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
as has been noted previously, a commercial line won't stay in spec if they aren't running at least several dozen rolls a day

I don't believe that is the case with the LORR chemistry.
It is designed for labs that run a few rolls per week.
Which is still probably more than you are developing.

Mr Bill · Sep 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
-- as has been noted previously, a commercial line won't stay in spec if they aren't running at least several dozen rolls a day,

Well, keep in mind that this info is probably based on commercial processing machines, too. So the developer is not being kept in airtight containers like you might be doing. I really don't know how long the developer would continue to be "good," but the replenisher should probably continue to be good as long as your "regular" developer is.

I think the real issues would be 1) are you gonna have enough film to be worthwhile, and 2) is it worth the additional effort? I can't really answer this, but if your non-replenished costs are more than you feel like paying, well, it's maybe worth considering. Except not with a Jobo processor per Kodak's instructions to not reuse.

Donald Qualls · Sep 24, 2020

MattKing said:
I don't believe that is the case with the LORR chemistry.
It is designed for labs that run a few rolls per week.
Which is still probably more than you are developing.

Yep, overall, including B&W, I've been processing 2-4 rolls a week (I have a hard time getting even that many scanned, never mind having time to print, too). Still, LORR is the developer I got, so I might give it a try. It won't be any worse than "use it up and toss it" and it might be a good bit better.

I've done replenishment in the past with D-23, and I'm currently running Xtol replenished, so it's not a big extra effort -- just add the correct amount of replenisher before putting the developer back in the bottle. And I can still mix the replenisher a liter at a time; the concentrate will keep much longer (and I can butane blanket it, too, which will help).

Bormental · Sep 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
This means one of the weekend's projects is to do the arithmetic to determine how much of each bottle of Developer Replenisher to use to make a single liter batch of tank solution. Three different size bottles, have to produce 763 ml of replenisher, which gets mixed with a little starter and some water.

If it helps, I have done the math and published it here. I have this PDF printed & laminated in my improvised "dark room". It's all production-tested

Mr Bill · Sep 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Still, LORR is the developer I got, so I might give it a try. It won't be any worse than "use it up and toss it" and it might be a good bit better.

If you give it a go you might want to start out by shooting off a full roll of a standard scene as a reference. If you periodically clip off a couple inches and process, you can visually compare to the first sample.

How much do you get out of Kodak Flexicolor?

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How much do you get out of Kodak Flexicolor?

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