Is there any possible harm to pre-wash before developing?

jay moussy · Jan 18, 2024

I just developed first ever roll of Tmax and, of course, it came out with the typical pink... unless steps are taken to correct, like pre-wash, longer fix, longer rinse, I learn.

I am familiar with pre-wash, as I have been working with Arista, and its sheds its green stuff that way.

So, generally, across film types, any possible harm in pre-washing as a rule?

DREW WILEY · Jan 18, 2024

I pre-rinse ALL films, including TMax. All the residual pink is washes out fairly quickly, although it does seem to help using an alkaline or archival fixer like TF4 or TF5.

Anon Ymous · Jan 18, 2024

I always do and have never had any problems.

You will likely receive other answers stating that it's the worst thing you can do and ... whatever... Anyway, do as you wish.

Paul Howell · Jan 18, 2024

Over the past 60 years I've been told to alway rinse and never to rinse. The GAF rep (1960s) told us never rinse as some of the water will soak into the emulsion preventing proper development, in the 80s a Kodak rep told me that a prewash was not harmful but not necessary. At this point I follow manufactures directions, for both film and developer. To get the pink out Tmax films, I find that when I use a hypo clearing agent the pink dye comes out.

MattKing · Jan 18, 2024

There appears to be some instances where a pre-wash changes the behavior of some developer and development methods in a way that can cause uneven development - thus the warning in some Ilford materials.
I've never observed problems since I started using a pre-rinse for every roll almost two decades ago.
But you should understand that the colour you see in the pre-rinse water is not necessarily the same thing as causes T-Max (and other) films to come out with a colour cast.
There is an entire Sticky thread on the issue, which is more an appearance problem than a big concern. Here is the Sticky thread - warning, it is long!: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...which-is-a-different-issue.69462/#post-975950

Nicholas Lindan · Jan 18, 2024

If you are referencing TMax films then I am not sure a pre-wash/rinse/soak will do all that much.

If you are using a conventional developer then you might have to extend the development time a tad to make up for the slower penetration of developer into an already water saturated emulsion.

A short prewash - not long enough to thoroughly saturate the emulsion - may give you mottling problems. A long pre-soak is often used with stand development to reduce mottling.

The best pink remover I know of is Hypo Clearing Agent, coupled with a 75F wash temperature there shouldn't be a problem.

Steven Lee · Jan 18, 2024

Enough has been said about B&W films above. But for the C-41 process, pre-washing makes it easier to get to the target temperature of 37.8C especially with rotary processors with their primitive temperature control.

I am not a frequent slide shooter and I've always used labs for E-6. But just for fun decided to try the Bellini 1L 6-bath E-6 kit last year. The documentation clearly sates: Avoid pre-heating with water. So I wonder about that too.

250swb · Jan 18, 2024

jay moussy said:
So, generally, across film types, any possible harm in pre-washing as a rule?

Yes, films with a thin emulsion layer for highest resolution, such as Adox CMS20, do not work well with a pre-wash because it increases contrast which is already inherently high.

Pioneer · Jan 18, 2024

I used to worry about the pink but don't even really think about it now. The biggest headache I have with TMax 100 that actually causes problems for me is wearing out my fixer early.

For what it is worth I never pre-wash (talking about black and white) but I do fix longer and give an additional 4 minute rinse step at the end when developing TMX100.

What pink may be remaining on the negative doesn't seem to cause any problems whether I only print the negs (about 40% of what I have done) or simply scan them. I am not an expert by any means but I have exposed and developed a lot of TMax over the years and have negatives going back over 25 years that still look pretty good.

GregY · Jan 18, 2024

n contrast to Pioneer, I always pre-soak & use staining developers. I never worry about "wearing out my fixer early."..... for film I always use my chemicals one shot and throw away

Pioneer · Jan 18, 2024

GregY said:
n contrast to Pioneer, I always pre-soak & use staining developers. I never worry about "wearing out my fixer early."..... for film I always use my chemicals one shot and throw away

Must be that water in Alberta.

Doremus Scudder · Jan 18, 2024

Some films (Ilford's I think) have surfactants built in. A too-short pre-soak can cause mottling with such films. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a problem.

250swb,

I don't understand how a pre-soak can increase contrast in any film. Can you explain what the mechanism is, or where you found the caveat please?

Best,

Doremus

Bronson Dugnutt · Jan 18, 2024

Doremus Scudder said:
I don't understand how a pre-soak can increase contrast in any film. Can you explain what the mechanism is, or where you found the caveat please?

Microfilms often struggle to retain shadow detail. Pre-soaking and developing at recommended times could result in blocked shadows giving the impression of higher contrast. You can adjust for this effect, of course, with various dilutions and development times.

DREW WILEY · Jan 18, 2024

There was actually a study of varying presoak times published in Darkroom Techniques magazine back when it was still published. But there were comparing density differences relative to rather strong differences in time. One minute versus two minutes didn't make much difference; one minute versus five minutes did. The whole point is to be consistent, and do overdo it.

As for Ilford films, I've developed all of the sheet film versions, and all the 120 versions too, following the usual approx 2 min presoak personal rule in each case, and never once have I encountered anything resembling mottling, nor with any Kodak film. I might have made an exception for Tech Pan due to the unusual developers involved; but that's in a whole different category, especially if used for technical purposes.

Augustus Caesar · Jan 18, 2024

jay moussy said:
I just developed first ever roll of Tmax and, of course, it came out with the typical pink... unless steps are taken to correct, like pre-wash, longer fix, longer rinse, I learn.

I am familiar with pre-wash, as I have been working with Arista, and its sheds its green stuff that way.

So, generally, across film types, any possible harm in pre-washing as a rule?

No. I pre-wet and let the tank stand for a few minutes. With T-Max films, be sure to use Perma-Wash or similar product after fixing, to get the pink dye out. Use rapid fixer, and agitate vigorously.

Sirius Glass · Jan 20, 2024

MattKing said:
There appears to be some instances where a pre-wash changes the behavior of some developer and development methods in a way that can cause uneven development - thus the warning in some Ilford materials.
I've never observed problems since I started using a pre-rinse for every roll almost two decades ago.
But you should understand that the colour you see in the pre-rinse water is not necessarily the same thing as causes T-Max (and other) films to come out with a colour cast.
There is an entire Sticky thread on the issue, which is more an appearance problem than a big concern. Here is the Sticky thread - warning, it is long!: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...which-is-a-different-issue.69462/#post-975950

Echoing that, once I learned about prewashing, I prewash all the films except Kodak Tri-X 400 when developing in XTOL with a Jobo processor as advised by Jobo and one author [I have to go to another location for the name of the book and the author]. I have heard that a few specific film and developer combinations do not do well with prewashing, but that is the exception and not the rule. I personally have never had a problem with prewashing, only better and more consistent processing. I have been prewashing for over fifteen years.

Maris · Jan 20, 2024

Because I use replenished Xtol developer I pre-wash all films to prevent dye accumulation in the developer stock.

BorHa · Jan 21, 2024

Prewet using photoflo all the time, every time. Been doing it for over a decade and it hasn’t affected my film.

mshchem · Jan 22, 2024

It's a waste of water. It's not recommended by Kodak or Ilford. Temperature argument is the best reason to presoak. However especially a Jobo tank is easy to warm up spinning for 5 minutes before you add developer. I've done it for years, quit doing it not long ago.

Hypo clearing agent gets rid of the purple. And yes T grain films use more fixer.

Philippe-Georges · Jan 22, 2024

DREW WILEY said:
I pre-rinse ALL films, including TMax. All the residual pink is washes out fairly quickly, although it does seem to help using an alkaline or archival fixer like TF4 or TF5.

Agreed!

Ivo Stunga · Jan 22, 2024

Bronson Dugnutt said:
Microfilms often struggle to retain shadow detail. Pre-soaking and developing at recommended times could result in blocked shadows giving the impression of higher contrast. You can adjust for this effect, of course, with various dilutions and development times.

Do you have data, link to research, personal experience or visuals to back this claim up? Because it's first time I'm encountering such a statement and am totally bewildered. In disbelief to be honest.

Nitroplait · Jan 22, 2024

I had some issues with Fujifilm 120 Neopan 400 about 15 years ago when it was still available.

The issue disappeared when I started with a two minute pre-soak. Since then I applied it to all my BW routines regardless of film brand or format.

If nothing else, I imagine it has a temp. stabilizing effect.
I have not experienced any adverse effect of pre-soaking.

Carnie Bob · Jan 22, 2024

On a side note , I plan to prewash silver paper , once pre shrunk I plan to make silver prints and then do multilayered gum impressions on the paper. I think it will work.

Dwayne Martin · Jan 22, 2024

Carnie Bob said:
On a side note , I plan to prewash silver paper , once pre shrunk I plan to make silver prints and then do multilayered gum impressions on the paper. I think it will work.

I would think glossy paper wouldn't need to be sized either. What do you plan to use for the negative? Digital? Pretty interesting idea I have to admit.

Carnie Bob · Jan 22, 2024

Hi Dwane - no need to size its to pre shrink, I am using contact enlarged negative to print on Ilford dead matt paper, using my solarizing method. Once I have this print I will dry and the
with multiple tonal area negatives coat with gum bichromate and add colour much like I aready do with gum over palladium.

Is there any possible harm to pre-wash before developing?

jay moussy

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Is there any possible harm to pre-wash before developing?

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