Kodak Autographic 3A lens cleaning AND now film options?

jay moussy · Dec 20, 2022

I just had the good fortune to find an Autographic 3A Special, with the B&L Tessar lens (and the rangefinder!).

There is a slight amount of fugus on the very front element, and I want to clean it.
By the way, proper cleaning solution?

Any special caution I need to observe in removing the front element, like finding a spacer, or having to watch the thread start to reassemble properly?

Other: Am I crazy in thinking a dry plate could fit in the (regular back) film chamber..?

Jim Jones · Dec 22, 2022

When using glass plates in old folding cameras, the emulsion side of the plate should rest on the camera's film rails. Otherwise, the rangefinder will be inaccurate. You can perhaps improvise a plate holder that will hold the plate against the film rails, and block all extraneous light from the plate. This involves loading the plate in the darkroom, taking one shot, and returning to the darkroom. I'd rather use a 4x5 or 3.25x4.25 camera and plate holders.

BrianShaw · Dec 22, 2022

I’d love to see a picture of your camera. I was totally unaware that 3A has a rangefinder. Sure wish mine did. Please teach me something I didn’t know!

jay moussy · Dec 22, 2022

Jim Jones said:
When using glass plates in old folding cameras, the emulsion side of the plate should rest on the camera's film rails. Otherwise, the rangefinder will be inaccurate. You can perhaps improvise a plate holder that will hold the plate against the film rails, and block all extraneous light from the plate. This involves loading the plate in the darkroom, taking one shot, and returning to the darkroom. I'd rather use a 4x5 or 3.25x4.25 camera and plate holders.

I get that, and am willing to do the one-off and then unload in darkroom and rely on the rangefinder.
it looks like it is near-impossible to find a plate back.
One question is will the standard back allow for a 2mm(?) plate thickness?

@BrianShaw it almost looks identical to this one:

The first coupled Rangefinder: Kodak No. 3A - Vintage-photo

Review of the No. 3A Autographic Kodak Special, the first coupled rangefinder camera.

vintage-photo.nl

I must say, it is fun to play with a 100-year old rangefinder!

BrianShaw · Dec 22, 2022

Well I’ll be…

Have fun with it!

tokam · Dec 23, 2022

jay moussy said:
There is a slight amount of fugus on the very front element, and I want to clean it.
By the way, proper cleaning solution?

Hydrogen peroxide at 3 - 4 % from the haircare section of the supermarket. At this concentration it is safe to use without PPE precautions. You can use it as an antiseptic on cuts if needed. Some people like to use this in combination with ammonia as well. Try the peroxide on its own at first.

For lens cleaning I place a piece of soft cloth in a shallow saucer and then place the lens element on the cloth. Pour enough peroxide to cover the lens and leave it for a couple of minutes. Remove lens element and dry off with a microfibre cloth. If necessary use your regular lens cleaning regime at this point although I have found that the peroxide leaves the lens pretty clean.

jay moussy · Jan 18, 2023

Bumping and updating the thread title to add film options.

I am to the point where I need to explore what I can do with this 3A.
- adapting 120 to the native 122? (adapters hard to find at the moment)
- single-shot direct positive paper
- cut down 4x5 (or 5x7?) film sheets and make a roll of it by taping cut sheets?
- other?

BrianShaw · Jan 18, 2023

1906 Kodak 3A

The Kodak No. 3A Model B2, which I have adapted, was made between 1904 and 1906 as far as I could determine from the available literature. It was a "Pocket Folding Kodak" but pockets must have been very big back then because this one measures (in inches) about 10 x 4-3/4 x 2. The No. 3A was one...

www.photrio.com

BrianShaw · Jan 18, 2023

As an alternative to roll film, a 4x5 sheet will fit in the back edge-to-edge with gaps in the length. Single-shot, unfortunately.

jay moussy · Jan 18, 2023

BrianShaw said:
1906 Kodak 3A

The Kodak No. 3A Model B2, which I have adapted, was made between 1904 and 1906 as far as I could determine from the available literature. It was a "Pocket Folding Kodak" but pockets must have been very big back then because this one measures (in inches) about 10 x 4-3/4 x 2. The No. 3A was one...

www.photrio.com

Darn, I had set that thread to be "watched" but never went back to re-read it!
This is the way I want to go, I think.
You spoke about the tension problems with the adapted 120.How did you solve that?

BrianShaw · Jan 18, 2023

On the left side of the supply spool is a friction tensioner. I gently bent it to increase tension.

Two23 · Jan 18, 2023

You can go this route. I use wet plate in several of my old cameras.

Disconnekt · Jan 18, 2023

You can use a 122-to-120 adapter, FPP sells some from a company called "CamraHack" (here: https://filmphotographystore.com/products/adapter-122-to-120-film-adapter?variant=7093620604961), seems they're currently sold out at the moment. Good chance you can find something similar on ebay.

neilt3 · Jan 19, 2023

jay moussy said:
Bumping and updating the thread title to add film options.

I am to the point where I need to explore what I can do with this 3A.
- adapting 120 to the native 122? (adapters hard to find at the moment)
- single-shot direct positive paper
- cut down 4x5 (or 5x7?) film sheets and make a roll of it by taping cut sheets?
- other?

I think whatever you do ( unless you make adapters for 120 ) you'll be using it single shot .
3d printing might be a solution if you can work on that , you might need to make some film rails for it as well , as otherwise the film will just hang loose .

Sheet film taped together is unlikely to work as it's nowhere near as flexible as roll film .
You'll struggle to wind it on to the next frame .
Maybe some brands are more flexible than others , but I doubt it'd work .

Donald Qualls · Jan 19, 2023

One can, of course, buy wide roll film made for aerial cameras and either reuse original 122 backing or make backing by taping together recut strips of 120 backing...

jay moussy · Jan 24, 2023

122 to 120 adapters in, waiting for some sun...

In the meantime, what looks like 2/3 of a view camera, 8x10 ("Zeiss" says the gifter) and a mystery lens coming my way. It may have been part of a sientific apparatus. Lots of studying up to do, just in case it can be made to work. I have Ansel Adams' "The Camera" as first guide. I just learned about Waterhouse stops!

gone · Jan 24, 2023

Nice camera. That's unit focusing, so no worries about unscrewing the front element and cleaning it. Ammonia or hydrogen will peroxide do the job.

jay moussy · Jan 30, 2023

@BrianShaw and others: are the film gate strips there to block light, or support the film sides (or both)?

Use tape first, then commit with thin card/metal?

Can I rely on a "fresh" film advance to get me a taunt film, as there is no prvision for tension backplate (make one with thin foam?)?

Donald Qualls · Jan 30, 2023

I've never had focus issues related to film flatness in my Voigtlander Rollfilmkamera (6x9 on 120 folder) despite its having no pressure plate, and my own habit of advancing after an exposure rather than before. IMO, such concerns may be overblown. Few of these cameras have fast enough lenses for the depth of focus to be razor thin anyway.

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2023

Hi Jay. The film gate strips are mostly to support the film and keep it on the original film plane. Without them, film sag is inevitable because of the length and barely-adequate tension system. Even with better tension I’d worry about film sag.

The original back was engineered to keep 122 film flat. I can’t verify but researched and believe the 122 film and backing paper to be about same thickness as 120 film and backing paper. Therefore, with no changes to the film plane and back the film flatness will be equivalent to that in original configuration.

My logic also included thoughts that it was a rather expensive camera in its day, not for a complete amateur, so Kodak must have thought about a certain amount of film flatness in the design. But reading their minds after all these years is challenging.

My negs do not show obvious focus or film flatness failure.

jay moussy · Jan 30, 2023

BrianShaw said:
My logic also included thoughts that it was a rather expensive camera in its day, not for a complete amateur, so Kodak must have thought about a certain amount of film flatness in the design. But reading their minds after all these years is challenging.

As I was fighting a bent part on a 1916 Ansco Buster, I found the patents documents online. Interesting to see something close to engineering drawings showing the parts relationship... thin metal bed blades bent or worn out.
Ansco's Carl Bornmann was listed as the author of several patents, at the time.

BrianShaw · Jan 30, 2023

Funny that you should mention patents. They are not necessarily intended to be engineering design drawings (by that I mean build specification of a specific product) but often very close to being exactly that. Great resources when one figures out how to use the USPTO site. The European Patent Office and Deutche patent sites are very user-friendly also. I've done a lot of patent research in specific areas. I'm often impressed by the ingenuity and engineering excellence that existed so long ago. I assume that you are refering to 1912 US1,033,525... which is conceptually similar to the implememtation on the 3A. There might be a more exact patent, but that seems to cover the intent. I hadn't seen that one until you made me look. Thanks!

And did you see the patent for th e winding key? https://patents.google.com/patent/US1029266#:~:text=Roll-film cameras-,US1029266A,-United States

Regarding @Donald Qualls sidenote about film flatness concerns... this is probably not a good place to re-start that discussion but I agree. Most folks who have been affected eventually admit tha tthey left the film in the camera for extended periods of time, which is not a good idea unless the film path is really straight. It's not a design defect so much as a bad user decision.

xya · Feb 1, 2023

The 120 film adapters are sold out at the camerastore, but you can buy them from the maker https://www.camerhack.it/product/fak-122-120-to-616-film-adapter-kit/ I just ordered one for my 3A. And there is a 3A Special (the one with the rangefinder) in the mail from the US to Europe. Should arrive soon. It has an unused roll of 122 in it. We will see, I will report back.

xya · Feb 20, 2023

Camera and adapters arrived. I will take photographs of both within the next few days...

jay moussy · Feb 22, 2023

Have you decided on the frame count?
Some go for five frames, some others like @BrianShaw stick with the safer four.

On mine, I have still to set some sort of film gate material, thin, and of course get a sunny day!

Kodak Autographic 3A lens cleaning AND now film options?

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