LegacyPro, Eco-Pro - Who are they?

[runswithsizzers]

Or more specifically, do they have a website?

tl:dr
I just started using the Eco-Pro ascorbic acid b&w film developer, and I like it fine (so far). Now, I need to order more fixer and some kind of film wash aid, so I've been looking at the Eco-Pro brand. The weird thing is, I am having a hard time locating any Technical Data Sheets where I would expect to find specific information about shelf life, capacity, etc. (I am not looking for Safety Data Sheets or MSDS.) Normally, I would go to the manufacturer's website to see if data sheets are available to download as PDFs - but I can't find a home page for LegacyPro / Eco-Pro.

I did find this document which discusses eco•pro Neutral Fixer and eco•pro Hypo Wash, posted via the Freestyle website. That document has a header and copyright notice: "digitaltruth photo"
<https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/product_pdf/ecopro/ECOPRO_Fixing_&_Washing_Instructions.pdf>

And the instructions for my Eco-Pro ascorbic acid developer shows a logo for "FS distribution" (12231 Florence Ave. Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670) and then gives the website address as: "www.kentmereusa.com" - which is not a useful link. That PDF can be seen here as linked from the Freestyle website: <https://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/...ro_Ascorbic_Acid_Powder_Film_Developer_AB.pdf>

I can easily imagine that there might be some kind of business connection between eco-pro, Freestyle and the DigitalTruth website, but it is harder for me to guess how Kentmere might fit in?

Does anyone know if more complete product data sheets exist for LegacyPro / eco-pro products - or where a person could contact the manufacturer?

 

[Pieter12]

ECO PRO Photo Chemicals

www.digitaltruth.com

 

[MattKing]

FS distribution is Freestyle's distribution arm.
I believe that Freestyle used to distribute Kentmere products in the US, prior to Kentmere being purchased by Harman Technology. As such Freestyle are/were the owners of the Kentmereusa domain name.
Freestyle may also be the distributors of the Legacy Pro and Eco Pro lines.
Those may actually be house brands for Freestyle as well - I'm not sure.
I've heard, but don't know for sure, that some or all of the Legacy Pro products are or were manufactured by the entity that made Unicolor products as well.
And there is a good chance that that manufacturing entity was making some of the post 2019 Kodak branded black and white photo chemistry for Kodak Alaris, prior to that business being sold to Sino Promise Holdings.
Confused yet?
Photo chemistry is, to a great extent, not made by the entities whose name is on the bottle or package.
And in many cases, any information is more likely to come from the entity that sells the product than the entity that makes it. Certainly that applies to Ilford branded photo chemicals.

 

[cmacd123]

I belive that the Legacy Pro is a House brand of Freestyle Photo. the eco-pro seems to be a sub brand of that

they sell to many dealers via their http://www.fsdistribution.biz/ sub business.

 

[cmacd123]

https://www.photosys.com/photographic-chemistry aka Unicolor is likely the source of many of these products, BUT as Matt says, they are likely to not say anything even if you were to see the boxes on their shipping dock.

freestyle has data sheets for many of their products on their web site.

 

[reddesert]

Legacy Pro / Eco Pro is distributed by FS Distribution (ie Freestyle), it says so right on the label of the chemical package.

Digitaltruth.com is the website that hosts the Massive Development Chart. Their US address is in Houston. They also distribute some apps (like darkroom timers), and they host a large collection of different manufacturer's data sheets for film, developers, etc. Some of them have the digitaltruth watermark on the PDFs and most don't. I don't know who runs Digitaltruth, or why Freestyle uses the datasheet that has DT's watermark on it (because I think Freestyle owns the Eco-Pro brand, and I don't know who owns DT). But it doesn't really matter. You can get the datasheets either from digitaltruth.com or Freestyle.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Legacy Pro / Eco Pro is distributed by FS Distribution (ie Freestyle), it says so right on the label of the chemical package.

Digitaltruth.com is the website that hosts the Massive Development Chart. Their US address is in Houston. They also distribute some apps (like darkroom timers), and they host a large collection of different manufacturer's data sheets for film, developers, etc. Some of them have the digitaltruth watermark on the PDFs and most don't. I don't know who runs Digitaltruth, or why Freestyle uses the datasheet that has DT's watermark on it (because I think Freestyle owns the Eco-Pro brand, and I don't know who owns DT). But it doesn't really matter. You can get the datasheets either from digitaltruth.com or Freestyle.

That is what I was affraid of. The "datasheets" provided by Digitaltruth and Freestyle are certainly better than nothing, but less detailed than what the big dogs like Kodak and Ilford provide. For example, the instructions for the eco-pro developer says, "Use full strength or dilute 1:1" - but no development times are given for 1+1 dilutions.

 

[reddesert]

Just treat Eco-Pro ascorbic acid developer like Xtol. That's what they formulated it to be like. There are times for 1:1 dilutions in the massive dev chart. Like anything in the massive dev chart, it's a starting point. The overview says, https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/ecopro_overview.php
"eco•pro Film Developer is a powder b&w film developer for very high image quality, fine grain and sharpness equivalent in quality and results to Kodak Xtol.
Development data for Xtol can be used for all films.
Dilutions: 1+0 (stock), 1+1, 1+2, 1+3."

No it's not the same as an incredibly detailed Kodak Technical Bulletin. They probably don't have the staffing level that Kodak once had to write all those technical bulletins.

 

[mshchem]

Ilford, Foma, Adox all have datasheets. Use these guys if you question Ecopro. I am hoping for SinoPromise to get back to color chemistry, paper etc.

I doubt I will ever have the same level of confidence I did in the original EKCo. I sure hope that the analog thing keeps going.

 

[runswithsizzers]

Just treat Eco-Pro ascorbic acid developer like Xtol. That's what they formulated it to be like. There are times for 1:1 dilutions in the massive dev chart. Like anything in the massive dev chart, it's a starting point. The overview says, https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/ecopro_overview.php
"eco•pro Film Developer is a powder b&w film developer for very high image quality, fine grain and sharpness equivalent in quality and results to Kodak Xtol.
Development data for Xtol can be used for all films.
Dilutions: 1+0 (stock), 1+1, 1+2, 1+3."

No it's not the same as an incredibly detailed Kodak Technical Bulletin. They probably don't have the staffing level that Kodak once had to write all those technical bulletins.

Yes, I have been using Kodak's published times for XTOL at 1+1 to process the Eco-Pro film developer, with good results.

As for what is posted about eco-pro reagents on the DigitalTruth website, the question I was trying to answer is this: Is digitaltruth photo a primary source - that is, are they the official representative for eco-pro? The fact that the eco-pro developer instructions (from Freestyle) has an out-of-date URL made me wonder if more up-to-date information might be available from another source. I see the information you quoted is copyright 2022 by Digitaltruth Photo Ltd. And clicking on the link for eco-pro film developer it says "Manufacturer: Digitaltruth Photo" - so I guess they are the best source for information.

 

[Pieter12]

I belive that the Legacy Pro is a House brand of Freestyle Photo. the eco-pro seems to be a sub brand of that

they sell to many dealers via their http://www.fsdistribution.biz/ sub business.

Legcy Eco Pro is also sold by B&H,maybe others, so I doubt it is a house brand.

 

[MattKing]

Legcy Eco Pro is also sold by B&H,maybe others, so I doubt it is a house brand.

It is complicated with Freestyle house brands, because Freestyle sells them in their store, and distributes them to other retailers.

 

[cmacd123]

Legcy Eco Pro is also sold by B&H,maybe others, so I doubt it is a house brand.

Freestyle sells many of their House brands to other reailers via their FSdistribution Business, Arista, Legacy-Pro, Holga. being the most common. They naturaly don't blow their horn on that side of the business. I believe that they are also the US market distributor for Foma, and posibly Adox

 

[Sirius Glass]

It is complicated with Freestyle house brands, because Freestyle sells them in their store, and distributes them to other retailers.

One must have a program! You cannot tell the players without a program!

 

[runswithsizzers]

If I had thought to look at one of the MSDS documents, I would have seen that the Distributor for the eco-pro developer is clearly shown as: "Freestyle Photographic Supplies, 5124 Sunset Blvd., Hollywood, CA 90027" What is less clear to me is why digitaltruth is the copyright holder for some of the eco-pro information sheets.

When the distributor and the manufacturer are two different companies, I would consider the manufacturer to be a more reliable source for technical information. But in this case, the distributor and the manufacturer may be the same company?

Or maybe not. In an email reply I got from Freestyle's Customer Service, I was told: "EcoPro Film developer was designed by the same person who runs the Massive Dev Chart, so he might have more info available." But I was not told that person's name or how to contact them. So Freestyle seemed to be suggesting that digitaltruth might have a stronger connection to the eco-pro brand than Freestyle?

It is interesting that Freestyle maintains their own list of times and temps for various combinations of films and developers - similar to The Massive Development Chart which is maintained by digitaltruth. So when there are discrepencies, it is still not clear which data set is more likely to be more reliable for the eco-pro developer. One example: Looking up Ilford Delta 400 Pro shot at 400 and developed in eco-pro at 1+1, the Massive Dev Chart (digitaltruth) shows 11.5 minutes at 20*C. Looking at Freestyle's chart, the same combination is showing 10.5 minutes. Kodak is showing the time for Delta 400 in XTOL, 1+1 as 10.5, same as Freestyle, so digitaltruth is probably the outlier in this case.

 

[cmacd123]

It is interesting that Freestyle maintains their own list of times and temps for various combinations of films and developers - similar to The Massive Development Chart which is maintained by digitaltruth. So when there are discrepencies, it is still not clear which data set is more likely to be more reliable for the eco-pro developer.

the digitaltruth charts seems to accept sunmissions from many users, and sometimes they are inconsistent even for the same film in the same developer. they don't make a bad starting point, but read the footnotes.

I would proably start with the time that Freestyle suggests. their name is on the bottle.

 

[Sirius Glass]

the digitaltruth charts seems to accept submissions from many users, and sometimes they are inconsistent even for the same film in the same developer. they don't make a bad starting point, but read the footnotes.

I would probably start with the time that Freestyle suggests. their name is on the bottle.

While digital truth can have accurate information, I only use it when I cannot find anything else including checking at APUG Photrio first and then using several kilos of salt.

 

[cmacd123]

If I had thought to look at one of the MSDS documents, I would have seen that the Distributor for the eco-pro developer is clearly shown as: "Freestyle Photographic Supplies, 5124 Sunset Blvd., Hollywood, CA 90027" What is less clear to me is why digitaltruth is the copyright holder for some of the eco-pro information sheets.


Or maybe not. In an email reply I got from Freestyle's Customer Service, I was told: "EcoPro Film developer was designed by the same person who runs the Massive Dev Chart, so he might have more info available."

the designer proably is not in a position to have pallets of the product manufactured, so they license the design to someone like Freestyle who is. (freestyle has been a major source of that sort of stuff, at least for the educational and darkroom market for years, and so they have a fairly major investment in warehousing and shipping.

accept that the stuff comes from some part of Freestyle and be glad it is an available choice.

 

[MattKing]

The days of vertical integration - one entity designing, manufacturing, packaging, distributing, supporting and sometimes retailing a product are mostly long gone.

 

[reddesert]

Or maybe not. In an email reply I got from Freestyle's Customer Service, I was told: "EcoPro Film developer was designed by the same person who runs the Massive Dev Chart, so he might have more info available." But I was not told that person's name or how to contact them. So Freestyle seemed to be suggesting that digitaltruth might have a stronger connection to the eco-pro brand than Freestyle?

That's not necessarily what that implies. It just means digitaltruth is more strongly connected to the formula. It is entirely possible that somebody designed the developer, licensed it to PSI (ex Unicolor) to manufacture, and to Freestyle to distribute under the eco-pro name, which might be owned by FS. Or they licensed it to Freestyle and Freestyle contracted to PSI. Or that digitaltruth, the developer designer, and PSI all have some business relationship, and they let Freestyle handle the distribution and consumer end of the business.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. Like with any developer, the manufacturer's recommendations are a starting point, regardless of whether the "manufacturer" is the designer, distributor, etc. For many of us, the manufacturer's recommendations are typically close enough, but people who are really exacting need to run their own tests and be prepared to make changes.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

FS distribution is Freestyle's distribution arm.
I believe that Freestyle used to distribute Kentmere products in the US, prior to Kentmere being purchased by Harman Technology. As such Freestyle are/were the owners of the Kentmereusa domain name.
Freestyle may also be the distributors of the Legacy Pro and Eco Pro lines.
Those may actually be house brands for Freestyle as well - I'm not sure.
I've heard, but don't know for sure, that some or all of the Legacy Pro products are or were manufactured by the entity that made Unicolor products as well.
And there is a good chance that that manufacturing entity was making some of the post 2019 Kodak branded black and white photo chemistry for Kodak Alaris, prior to that business being sold to Sino Promise Holdings.
Confused yet?
Photo chemistry is, to a great extent, not made by the entities whose name is on the bottle or package.
And in many cases, any information is more likely to come from the entity that sells the product than the entity that makes it. Certainly that applies to Ilford branded photo chemicals.

Yes, incredibly confusing.

I thought Kentmere was the backdoor brand of Photographer's Warehouse Ultrafine Extreme. I see it also shows up as an independent label on adorma.com .

As has been said about sports, you can't tell the players w/o a program.

 

[MattKing]

Kentmere was an independent manufacturer.
Than Harman bought it.
Then Harman realized that Kentmere's production facility - which was the last source of commercial production of POP papers - was rife with environmental and safety issues.
So Harman closed down that facility, brought in house manufacture of film and photographic paper for sale under the lower cost Kentmere line, and discontinued POP papers, because they were not able to produce them on their more modern equipment.
Kentmere is distributed by the same entities that distribute Harman's Ilford branded product and Harman's Harman branded product.
Those same distributors are most likely distributing Paterson products as well, as Paterson uses Harman for that.

 

[AgX]

The days of vertical integration - one entity designing, manufacturing, packaging, distributing, supporting and sometimes retailing a product are mostly long gone.

Adox/Fotoimpex are trying to reinstall such.

The same time Mirko told us here that for each product were an outside production is possible the economics are evaluated. But I guess in times were delivery breakdowns are common, such will be evaluated differently now.

 

[Wallendo]

Legacy Pro, as well as Arista, are just brand names used by Freestyle. The products of multiple manufactures are sold under those names.

Arista EDU Ultra film is Foma.
Arista Premium was TX-400
Legacy Pro film was Fuji.
You rarely know the manufacturer. On the other hand, Freestyle doesn't generally change manufacturers while keeping the same names.

 

[Paul Verizzo]

Back when FS was selling Arista Premium 35mm film I had a long time CS agent confirm it's PX and TX. I still wonder why the PX wasn't rated 125.