LegacyPro L110 (HC-110 Equivalent)

Lamar · Jan 25, 2015

Looking at broadening my developer choices. I have only used D76, XTOL, and Rodinal. Out of the three that I wanted to try, only Ilford Microphen is readily available. It seems Ilfotec LC29 is not sold in the US and Kodak HC-110 is either an in store only item or sold out. Freestyle had an equivalent, LegacyPro L110, in a smaller 1 pint volume which is actually better for me. Does anyone have experience with LegacyPro L110?

Roger Cole · Jan 25, 2015

Many of the formula are identical, but this one is said to not be. AFAIK the formula for HC-110 is proprietary and unknown outside Kodak. I looked around and Freestyle says it is expected back in stock Jan. 30th which isn't very long to wait. Adorama ships more than B&H will but they say it's no longer available from them. Ultrafine lists it and apparently will ship it:

http://www.ultrafineonline.com/kohcfide1l.html

It's a rather higher price but you can get it from Midwest Photo Exchange via Amazon (not listed on Midwest's own page though.)

http://www.amazon.com/Kodak-HC-110-...8&qid=1422210264&sr=8-1&keywords=Kodak+HC-110

Lamar · Jan 25, 2015

I ordered Microphen and LegacyPro L110. Posts elsewhere say L110 is thinner and easier to mix directly from concentrate than HC-110 and the performance is the same. I saw some really nice Tri-X / HC110 scans on flicker though so I hope this works as well. The Tri-X / L110 posts I saw on Flickr compare nicely although there weren't that many.

Roger Cole · Jan 25, 2015

Let us know how it works. I have an unopened bottle of HC-110 I've been meaning to try.

Gerald C Koch · Jan 25, 2015

LC-110 is somewhat similar to HC-110 but the difference in viscosity should be the tipoff. One of the advantages of HC-110 is its very long shelf life. This is due to the fact that the formula contains no water. So do not expect the same longevity. A formula which is probably very similar to HC-110 is given in U. S. Patent 3,552,969 (1971) assigned to Kodak. But the Legacy, Ilford and Kodak products are all different.

kintatsu · Jan 25, 2015

Roger Cole said:
Let us know how it works. I have an unopened bottle of HC-110 I've been meaning to try.

I don't know about the new HC-110 or the L110, but I have a couple bottles of the older stuff I wouldn't trade. One's half full, the other still unopened.

The one on Amazon is the one I have and love it. It's worth the price, as it seems to last forever. For my 4x5 FP4+, in a tray, using Dilution H, I get 9 minutes for a range of .1 to 1.3. Those ranges were tested using my meter, not a densitometer, though. That's using 8ml Chemicals and 494ml water.

I've never had a problem using it.

cmacd123 · Jan 25, 2015

The legacy pro stuff, works at similar dilutions, but is unlikely the same formula. The viscosity is MUCH less, and while that does make it more convenient to mix it almost makes it impossible to work on the same principles.

I am not sure if the formula for real HC-110 is secret as much as the ingredients are specially made and so are not chemicals that a small manufacturer can buy on the market. One post I have seen years ago implied that the process to make one of the ingredients has a stage where the stuff is quite explosive and must be done under very tight controls.

It seems that the HC-110 ingredients actually come alive once water is added, and so you can almost think of it as a powder developer in Liquid form.

cmacd123 · Jan 25, 2015

As far as availability, when manufacture switched to Germany - the developer is now supplied in 1 litre bottles and that has in turn caused some suppliers such as B&H to no longer be willing to ship it. the previous package for 30 years or more was a 16 US fluid oz bottle (a little less than a half litre)

Photo Engineer · Jan 25, 2015

The formula cited in the patent above by Gerry is just about correct. It does use esoteric chemicals and no water. Anything else is a "poor" substitute if one wants the entire gamut of HC110 properties.

It is nevertheless an acceptable developer for other reasons.

PE

NedL · Jan 25, 2015

Freestyle is probably getting more business now that b&h won't ship it and adorama doesn't carry it, but it makes me worry a little about the future of the product if it is becoming harder to purchase. I've still got two unopened 16 oz. bottles, but am going through it faster now than I was a year ago...

Richard S. (rich815) · Jan 25, 2015

Just curious, what's prompting you to want to "broaden" your development choices? Is something about those three you mention not working for you?

kintatsu · Jan 25, 2015

B&H told me that they couldn't ship it because send more than 1/2 liter of chemicals was not allowed on aircraft since the ValuJet debacle.

Strangely enough, that incident was in the 90's and they have sent me more than 1/2 liter in the past.

RattyMouse · Jan 25, 2015

Anyone know why B & H won't ship HC110?

RattyMouse · Jan 25, 2015

kintatsu said:
B&H told me that they couldn't ship it because send more than 1/2 liter of chemicals was not allowed on aircraft since the ValuJet debacle.

Strangely enough, that incident was in the 90's and they have sent me more than 1/2 liter in the past.

The Valujet plane crash was caused by oxygen generators that were mislabeled as empty when they were in fact full. How B & H could somehow make the decision that 0.5 liters of HC110 was safe from this is beyond imagination.

Lamar · Jan 25, 2015

I've been using D76 and XTOL for a while and just recently started using Rodinal. I like the different look of the grain Rodinal provides in some cases. Just wondering what other developers offer in subtle differences. I've been looking at FilmDev.org for a while now and narrowed my choices down to a few based on what film I typically shoot and how often I shoot. I shoot more Tri-X and HP5 than anything else and then I push a good bit. I do a few rolls of the T-grain 100's and Pan F here and there too. My choices were based on small batch suitability, push performance, and fine but not necessary finest grain at the film's box speed and as fine as practical grain at pushed speeds.

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
Just curious, what's prompting you to want to "broaden" your development choices? Is something about those three you mention not working for you?

kintatsu · Jan 25, 2015

RattyMouse said:
The Valujet plane crash was caused by oxygen generators that were mislabeled as empty when they were in fact full. How B & H could somehow make the decision that 0.5 liters of HC110 was safe from this is beyond imagination.

Henry Posner from B&H has posted this several places on the net. "In the aftermath of the ValuJet Flight 592 crash in the Everglades, the FAA and ICC have cracked down on what items may and may not be shipped by air."

How that conclusion came to be reached a decade and a half later is unknown to me. That's what they told me in a Facebook question, and apparently on several other forums they've repeated it.

I dropped it, as I had other issues with B&H at the time. They did ship the 1 pint bottles when they had it, though.

Roger Cole · Jan 25, 2015

kintatsu said:
B&H told me that they couldn't ship it because send more than 1/2 liter of chemicals was not allowed on aircraft since the ValuJet debacle.

Strangely enough, that incident was in the 90's and they have sent me more than 1/2 liter in the past.

They've been spouting this nonsense forever. Why then will other places ship it?

I'd bet that the bottom line is that all their shipping people would have to be hazmat trained and it isn't worth that to them, while it is for someone like Freestyle that doesn't sell big ticket AV items and such and for whom it's a significant part of the shipping from their (much smaller and cheaper to train) shipping department.

I like B&H in general but I'm not buying this story for, pardon the joke, a New York minute.

kintatsu · Jan 25, 2015

Roger Cole said:
... I like B&H in general but I'm not buying this story for, pardon the joke, a New York minute.

I agree with you 100%.

They also blame the post office for slow shipments. They e-mail you that it was sent on Thursday, but the USPS doesn't receive it until the following Wednesday, so it must be the post office's fault.

They do sell the films and papers I like, though, so I have to take it in stride.

DWThomas · Jan 25, 2015

That is the one thing that seems a bit weird about B&H, who I buy a great deal of stuff from and find fast and reliable. Here in the Philadelphia suburbs I get UPS Ground shipments from them in less than 48 hours. It would seem if they can sell these chemicals over the counter at their store in the middle of NYC, they have to get it there somehow. One might think they could specify ground shipping only on the dubious stuff. But I go with Freestyle when I need to, just have to plan a few extra days ahead.

37th Exposure · Jan 25, 2015

If you liked Ilford LC29, then Ilford Ilfotec HC should be the same, just more concentrated. See the data sheets at ilfordphoto.com.
As for B&H a New York City APUG member mentioned something about local New York City regulations. I don't know if that's true or not. They will ship Ilfotec HC but not HC-110.

Jeff Bradford · Jan 26, 2015

HC-110 has to be shipped via ground transport due to its chemical contents.
I just got mine from Freestyle a few days ago. Maybe I got the last one they had in stock?

kintatsu · Jan 26, 2015

Jeff Bradford said:
HC-110 has to be shipped via ground transport due to its chemical contents.
I just got mine from Freestyle a few days ago. Maybe I got the last one they had in stock?

They used to ship the 1 pint bottles to APO which is air transport. And it can still be had on Amazon and shipped via air.

RattyMouse · Jan 26, 2015

Jeff Bradford said:
HC-110 has to be shipped via ground transport due to its chemical contents.
I just got mine from Freestyle a few days ago. Maybe I got the last one they had in stock?

Amazon will 2 day ship HC-110.

Lamar · Jan 26, 2015

Weird that implementation of shipping rules is so all over the place for the same product. Never having looked at them I would guess it's probably related to a confusing set of regulations and conservative or inadequate interpretation by the vendors, retailers, and or shippers. Somewhere within all this inconsistency lies the truth......

Roger Cole · Jan 26, 2015

There are powders that B&H will not ship too, and every single thing they won't ship someone else will (yes, sometimes ground only but I'm ok with that.) I suppose it could be local New York regulations. Otherwise if they just came out and said "look, this is a very tiny part of our business, we have a huge shipping department with no way to only have a few people handle these orders, and it just isn't worth it to train all of them for this tiny slice of our sales" I'd totally understand. But that Valuejet stuff - no.

LegacyPro L110 (HC-110 Equivalent)

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