Leica M4 catastrophe... Need advice

remjet5219 · Jul 20, 2023

Hello!

Not sure if this is the right forum section. It's my first post!

I acquired a Leica M4 about a year ago online and I wanted it to be in "bargain" condition, as in not perfect so I don't feel hesitation to use it or take it anywhere. And I did and took great photos with it. But on one of my excursions I slipped and had the camera with me. It took a short fall but nothing noticeable... Until I looked through the rangefinder and noticed it was misaligned.

When I got home I tried looking up videos about how to align it, but ended up taking it in to a local shop that repair Leicas. After a few days, they reached out suggesting I to ship it to Leica in NJ because there were parts that they felt they couldn't fix. After even more time and sending it to Leica, they quoted me 1800 to "replace many parts".

I'm definitely surprised because the camera had been functioning flawlessly until I needed the rangefinder aligned. It wasn't that far off either to begin with.

I'm a bit discouraged from that price point and confused how it came to be such a costly repair that costs more than a new one in a better condition. I'm relatively new to the Rangefinder and Leicas, so any advice would be appreciated. Would I even be able to sell it?

Thanks so much and sorry in advance if this belongs somewhere else. Happy to be a part of this community.

koraks · Jul 20, 2023

The red dot comes at a price

logan2z · Jul 20, 2023

remjet5219 said:
Hello!

Not sure if this is the right forum section. It's my first post!

I acquired a Leica M4 about a year ago online and I wanted it to be in "bargain" condition, as in not perfect so I don't feel hesitation to use it or take it anywhere. And I did and took great photos with it. But on one of my excursions I slipped and had the camera with me. It took a short fall but nothing noticeable... Until I looked through the rangefinder and noticed it was misaligned.

When I got home I tried looking up videos about how to align it, but ended up taking it in to a local shop that repair Leicas. After a few days, they reached out suggesting I to ship it to Leica in NJ because there were parts that they felt they couldn't fix. After even more time and sending it to Leica, they quoted me 1800 to "replace many parts".

I'm definitely surprised because the camera had been functioning flawlessly until I needed the rangefinder aligned. It wasn't that far off either to begin with.

I'm a bit discouraged from that price point and confused how it came to be such a costly repair that costs more than a new one in a better condition. I'm relatively new to the Rangefinder and Leicas, so any advice would be appreciated. Would I even be able to sell it?

Thanks so much and sorry in advance if this belongs somewhere else. Happy to be a part of this community.

You might want to send it to DAG or YYE for an estimate before commiting to an $1800 repair from Leica NJ. It's quite possible that either one could repair the camera for much less.

David Reynolds · Jul 20, 2023

logan2z said:
You might want to send it to DAG or YYE for an estimate before commiting to an $1800 repair from Leica NJ. It's quite possible that either one could repair the camera for much less.

I agree with logan2z . Send it to YYE in Mass. and get a quote. He does excellent work at a reasonable price.

Nitroplait · Jul 20, 2023

I think the standard official Leica Germany overhaul is around €1000 give or take - plus parts. So the NJ quote sounds expectable.

The problem about a beater camera is that the cost of service isn't lower just because the camera is ugly. It feels better to throw money at a presentable looking camera.

As others have noted, there are people who will work on your camera for less. The qualified ones may take quite long - best to have two Leicas for those situations.

Steve Bellayr · Jul 20, 2023

Vertical alignment is not critical. Horizontal is critical. Leica M4s are not decreasing in value. Every camera will eventually need servicing. One well know Leica afficionado wrote whenever he purchased a Leica he budgeted the cost of service into the price.

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2023

I hope that it recovers and you get to enjoy it.

Welcome to ~~APUG~~ Photrio!!

mshchem · Jul 20, 2023

Youxin Ye, except at least 4 month wait and WAY less money than other people.

Don_ih · Jul 20, 2023

If your rangefinder prisms became unglued, you won't get a cheap repair from anyone, is my guess.

btaylor · Jul 20, 2023

mshchem said:
Youxin Ye, except at least 4 month wait and WAY less money than other people.

+1. His turn around used to be a lot shorter but like most repair facilities the wait has grown with the limited supply of technicians doing this type of work. He has worked on a number of my Leicas and lenses and I have always been pleased with his workmanship and prices.

Nicholas Lindan · Jul 20, 2023

It sounds as if the repair shops opened the camera up and found the camera is close to worn out and needs an extensive overhaul.

You might want to stress that you only want the vertical alignment fixed and to ignore everything else.

The risk is that you end up paying for an overhaul peicemeal - now the RF alignment, next the shutter, after that the advance mechanism ...

remjet5219 · Jul 20, 2023

Nicholas Lindan said:
It sounds as if the repair shops opened the camera up and found the camera is close to worn out and needs an extensive overhaul.

You might want to stress that you only want the vertical alignment fixed and to ignore everything else.

The risk is that you end up paying for an overhaul peicemeal - now the RF alignment, next the shutter, after that the advance mechanism ...

Yes that's a great point. I think at this point my goal is to sell. I do have some ethical concerns doing that too. I'll disclose everything and hope someone is interested in giving this camera some love. I already have an M6 that I'm using as my main.

remjet5219 · Jul 20, 2023

Steve Bellayr said:
Vertical alignment is not critical. Horizontal is critical. Leica M4s are not decreasing in value. Every camera will eventually need servicing. One well know Leica afficionado wrote whenever he purchased a Leica he budgeted the cost of service into the price.

That's very smart. How often do you think leicas should get CLA'd? And is overhauling at some point a normal part of its life?

faberryman · Jul 20, 2023

It seems like the Leica repair guys are backed up for months and months, and the situation is getting worse not better. There must be a lot of Leicas needing repair. Hmm.

Steve Bellayr · Jul 20, 2023

What I indicated is that if you own a Leica at some point they will need a CLA. I had to CLA (& update an M6) after 30+ years. Any mechanical object will have some wear. Seals on SLRs wear out. (Even expensive watches need to be cleaned at some point). Best rule of thumb is if it is working leave it alone. But, if the camera is in a certain range of age be aware it may be do for a cleaning. (Where you live and where you take the camera will also impact & lessen the time.) Tropical & arctic conditions will negatively impact the time. All said and done a CLA is usually cheaper than a new camera.

Kodachromeguy · Jul 20, 2023

Don_ih said:
If your rangefinder prisms became unglued, you won't get a cheap repair from anyone, is my guess.

My experience with the older finders that were assembled with Canada balsam was that a failure caused a partial blackout. The M4 may have used synthetic clear glue.

The $1800 estimate is quite a shocker. Don Goldberg in Wisconsin has done meticulous and reasonably priced work on my bodies and lenses. That included a IIIC that was quite worn internally.

madNbad · Jul 20, 2023

https://www.reddotrepair.com

Jadon Rosario worked on my M4 when he was a technician at Advance Camera in Portland, OR. I don't know what his turn around times are but it's worth a quote.

Kodachromeguy · Jul 20, 2023

Steve Bellayr said:
Best rule of thumb is if it is working leave it alone

High end watches: NO. Have them maintained on a regular schedule to prevent wear on bearings and other parts.

The same is true for mechanical cameras.

logan2z · Jul 20, 2023

faberryman said:
It seems like the Leica repair guys are backed up for months and months, and the situation is getting worse not better. There must be a lot of Leicas needing repair. Hmm.

Some of these cameras are 70+ years old, so it's not that surprising that they need a little TLC. And many Leica buyers don't wait for a failure to send their cameras in for a CLA but service them right after purchase to ensure long-term reliability.

Since there are only a handful of service technicians (outside of Leica themselves) who specialize in Leica repairs, they do naturally get backed up.

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2023

Steve Bellayr said:
What I indicated is that if you own a Leica at some point they will need a CLA. I had to CLA (& update an M6) after 30+ years. Any mechanical object will have some wear. Seals on SLRs wear out. (Even expensive watches need to be cleaned at some point). Best rule of thumb is if it is working leave it alone. But, if the camera is in a certain range of age be aware it may be do for a cleaning. (Where you live and where you take the camera will also impact & lessen the time.) Tropical & arctic conditions will negatively impact the time. All said and done a CLA is usually cheaper than a new camera.

Very bad advice! Wait long enough and the camera will move from needing an adjustment and/or lubrication, to needed an expensive or hard to get item.

bdial · Jul 20, 2023

Comparing your refurbished-for-1800 M4 to a random one with an unknown history is an apples to oranges comparison. As several folks have mentioned, there are alternatives to sending it to Leica which will probably save you some money.

Sirius Glass · Jul 20, 2023

remjet5219 said:
Yes that's a great point. I think at this point my goal is to sell. I do have some ethical concerns doing that too. I'll disclose everything and hope someone is interested in giving this camera some love. I already have an M6 that I'm using as my main.

Why sell it? Have it brought up to factory specifications and then you will have a Leica for black & white and a Leica for color.

Christiaan Phleger · Jul 20, 2023

Yeah I'd say not to sell it, it is better to know what you have and trust it than keep churning through M bodies. I've bounced an M4 and had what might be the same issue, a condensing element gets knocked out of a metal frame, easy to glue but then you need to know how to calibrate everything. Of course Leica NJ would want to replace the whole assembly, but that is back up to Factory Standards.
Excellent repair suggestions, as well as the 'two-Leica" advice, if you like them you like them and rotating them is a good idea. Have the tech look over the camera and they'll tell you what might go next, they are actually quite durable save for that pesky rangefinder.

summicron1 · Jul 20, 2023

Few repair people will JUST fix the rangefinder -- the problem is that whenever they open the camera up they immediately become responsible for how it works when you get it back, so they will insist on doing a full service even if all you want is the rangefinder fixed.
An M4 is about 40 years old and a good service is well worth the cost. It will last you the rest of your life, if not longer.

GregY · Jul 20, 2023

I'd balk at paying $1800 as well. But I sent my M4 to Don Goldberg DAG....& suggest he or YYYe are good bets for fixing your camera.
Not to be negative, but what you heard from Leica NJ sounds like taking your car to the dealership shop. What exactly are the parts that need to be replaced.
At the same time, I agree that a thorough CLA will put your M4 in great shape.

Leica M4 catastrophe... Need advice

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Leica M4 catastrophe... Need advice

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