Mamiya TLR questions

Wayne · Jan 29, 2017

Can someone explain (from personal experience) the differences in parallax correction in the C330 vs C220 cameras? I've seen the former described as automatic, and the latter described as some vague interpretation of lines in the viewer combined with an expsoure scale. I'm not sure how accurate that is but it sounds relatively cumbersome for quickly executed handheld portraits which is my main interest in the TLR.

Also, other than weight, parallax correction and auto-cocking on some models are there other advantages/disadvantages of the various C models for handheld portraiture?

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2017

Wayne, I found my C33 much nicer to use than my C3 which like the C220 isn't auto cocking, I also like the parallax correction. I used mine a lot for portraits. If I bought another it would be a C33 or C330.

Ian

Wayne · Jan 29, 2017

At what distance does parallax become a problem? Is it an issue for portraits or only for closeups?

ckuwajima · Jan 29, 2017

C330 parallax is shown in viewfinder through a bar that appears on top indicting where is the top of the frame seem by the taking lens. It creeps down as the subject is nearer to the camera.
For 80mm lens the bar appears around 2m for 55mm lens, a little farther for 80mm and about 3m for 135mm.

For tripod mount photos, you can use an accessory named Paramender which elevates the camera the exact height difference between viewing and taking lenses (5cm): you just frame, focus and use the paramender to fix the parallax error.

It is important to note that the parallax bar also indicates the exposure correction needed, which increases as the bellows is extended to focus near subjects.

Ian Grant · Jan 29, 2017

It's not an issue with Portraits, the C33/C330 have the screen indicator which works well, you can get a Paramender for close up work. I shot a jewellery catalogue with my C33 in the mid 1970's just marked the tripod centre column to reposition the taking lens and that worked fine.

Ian

grahamp · Jan 29, 2017

The lens axis separation on the Mamiya C series is 50mm. You only need parallax correction when 50mm becomes a significant fraction of the framed size at the subject. For conventional portraits it is going to be negligible. The same applies for exposure compensation. If you are worried about cropping the top of the frame too tightly you could always insert a frame guide from transparent film into the base of the finder. All the finders (waist, chimney, Porro and prism) have a recess for taking the 55/65mm correction scale, and you can put anything you like in there.

The C33/C22 are probably the heaviest, and that can have an effect on handling. The C330/C220 screens are a little clearer. A lot depends on your subject. If they are sitting, then a neck strap or monopod may work in place of a tripod to give you more stability and reduce fatigue. If you are using flash then camera stability is less of an issue. I have done TLR portraits of sitting subjects without looking through the camera - set up the general framing, allow enough DoF, and face the subject for better communication.

Wayne · Jan 29, 2017

ckuwajima said:
C330 parallax is shown in viewfinder through a bar that appears on top indicting where is the top of the frame seem by the taking lens. It creeps down as the subject is nearer to the camera.
For 80mm lens the bar appears around 2m for 55mm lens, a little farther for 80mm and about 3m for 135mm.

It is important to note that the parallax bar also indicates the exposure correction needed, which increases as the bellows is extended to focus near subjects.

This is part of why I asked, because some sites like http://grahamp.dotinthelandscape.org/mfaq/mfaq-03.html seem to be describing the same kind of parallax bar for the 220 as you describe for the 330. But I might just be reading it all wrong.

My initial lens will most likely be a 135, FWIW. I knew I wanted something longer than normal but wasn't sure how long to go. I may end up going with a 105 if I find the 135 forces me somewhere I don't want to be.

MattKing · Jan 29, 2017

grahamp here on APUG is the that same Graham Patterson whose link you posted.

But I think you are reading it wrong.

On the C330 there is a movable bar in the focusing area that moves to indicate the change in the top of the area being photographed.

On the C220, there are two lines in the screen. They correspond with two indications on the focusing and exposure compensation guide on the side of the camera. When that guide indicates a 1.5X exposure compensation due to close work bellows extension, the line in the viewfinder marked 1.5 indicates where the top of the photograph will be. Same for the 2X compensation mark and viewfinder line.

You only really use that on the C220 when you are working closeup - usually on a tripod. And in that case, a paramender works even better.

That being said, you don't often need to worry a lot about it. A really rough rule of thumb is that you rarely need to worry about compensating for parallax unless you are working at a subject distance less than 10X the focal length of the lens. So for an 80mm lens, that means 800mm (less than three feet).

There are exceptions, but the 50mm (2 inch) distance between the lenses means that your parallax variation is 50mm (2 inches). It is pretty easy to leave an extra couple of inches around your subject if you don't have time to correct exactly for it.

A 135mm lens as a standard lens is quite long. As a portrait lens, it is superb. In my case, I have settled on a 65mm and 135mm lens kit for my C330.

grahamp · Jan 29, 2017

Wayne said:
This is part of why I asked, because some sites like http://grahamp.dotinthelandscape.org/mfaq/mfaq-03.html seem to be describing the same kind of parallax bar for the 220 as you describe for the 330. But I might just be reading it all wrong.

[...].

Since I wrote it, I hope you are reading it wrong For the C220: "Parallax compensation Via focus scale / exposure compensation scale and two reference lines on focusing screen". The C220/f screens have two reference lines See http://grahamp.dotinthelandscape.org/images/c220/c220screen.jpg
These are used in conjunction with a side scale See http://grahamp.dotinthelandscape.org/images/c220/c220scaleplates.jpg
This is not especially convenient, but good enough for tripod work.

Unless you are trying for really tight head crops, parallax is not an issue at those distances. And you can always work out the amount of correction you might need in that case in advance. But there is usually so much going on with portraits (sitters move) that leaving a little space is usually a wise habit.

Wayne · Jan 29, 2017

Sorry for not recognizing you. I'm sure its quite clear but I have a hard time visualizing things as they are from verbal descriptions without seeing them. The picture helps, at least I can see the lines. I still don't get where the exposure scale enters the parallax equation but I don't think I need to. It sounds like it won't be much of an issue anyway, unless I start doing closeup work with it and I think I'd use the RB or 4x5 for that anyway.

So the main potential advantages of the 330 are down to weight and shutter cocking. Auto shutter cock sure sounds nice for quick retakes, but OTOH I've been cocking shutters for 30 years so I doubt I'll even notice any inconvenience. That leaves weight, which was the main reason I lean toward the 220. But I'll probably have to try both a 220 and 330 to really know which I like best.

Wayne · Jan 29, 2017

Well I really wanted that clean c220 that went on eblay for 152 tonight, but heck if I'm gonna pay 165 with shipping for a 220 with fungus lenses when I don't even need a lens. I suppose its a good deal if the fungi hasn't etched the lens, but not such a good deal for just a body if the lens is toast.

So I nabbed a C330 from KEH. Wasnt my first choice because of the weight, but maybe I'll come across a free 220 now that I can be patient.

xtolsniffer · Jan 30, 2017

I choose a C220 over a C330 on the basis of weight. I wanted an MF camera that was a lot lighter and smaller than my RB67, so I was happy to sacrifice benefits such as automatic parallax indication for weight. To be honest, you have to be pretty close for it to be an issue, and if you're close you're probably going to use a tripod due to magnification and camera shake in which case use a paramender. It's an ingenious device which can be had for very little on the auction site and takes up only a little space in the camera bag. One thing that might be useful, it's not really advertised, but the 220f can apparently take the interchangeable focussing screens of the 330s. You have to take the old screen out by removing a few screws, but when you do it looks like it's a standard 330s screen. The manual certainly doesn't say you can do this, perhaps because it looks like the sort of thing a technician ought to do. I don't have a 330s screen to test it (no idea if other 330 screens will work) but it looks like it might work. If anyone has more info on this I'd be grateful...grahamp???

grahamp · Jan 30, 2017

I have no data on that. Maybe a C220f, but not based on what I know of my C220. I am sure someone has tried switching screens, but it is not really a 'user serviceable part'. Mess witha working camera at your own risk!

alanegreen · Apr 3, 2017

grahamp said:
I have no data on that. Maybe a C220f, but not based on what I know of my C220. I am sure someone has tried switching screens, but it is not really a 'user serviceable part'. Mess witha working camera at your own risk!

I can confirm that the C330s focussing screen can be fitted to the C220f - I have done this on my C220f.

Alan Gales · Apr 3, 2017

I bought the C220 for the lighter weight. It's not much lighter but I have a bad back and every little bit helps. I'm used to cocking shutters for large format. I also bought a paramender just in case I wanted to do close ups. They are plentiful and cheap enough on Ebay. I ended up buying a C220f to replace the C220. I did this because I shoot people inside a lot and the focussing screen is a little brighter on the later f version. It has the same type screen as the C330s.

Another difference between the C220 and C330 is that the C330 has an additional shutter release on the bottom of the camera like a Rolleiflex. I prefer the shutter release switch on the side of the camera so it's a moot point to me.

Kodachromeguy · Apr 3, 2017

The stock C220 screen is pretty dim. Are the screens of the C220f - C330s brighter? I noticed the C220f sells for a surprisingly high price, and most come from the Japanese vendors (maybe few were sold in USA?).

Alan Gales · Apr 3, 2017

Kodachromeguy said:
The stock C220 screen is pretty dim. Are the screens of the C220f - C330s brighter? I noticed the C220f sells for a surprisingly high price, and most come from the Japanese vendors (maybe few were sold in USA?).

I found the C220 screen fine outdoors. It was a bit dim indoors and the C220f screen is a little brighter. It's not near as bright as a Beatie or Maxwell screen though.

The C220 is actually a better built camera. The C220f has more plastic parts and instead of a film wind crank you get a knob. I think they are more expensive because they are newer. I waited and watched and picked one up from an American Seller off Ebay at a good price. I have nothing against Japanese Sellers and have had good luck buying from them in the past. The negative of course is that shipping is higher from Japan.

Wayne · Apr 3, 2017

Yeah my 330s has plastic knobs and I already broke one. Fortunately its just the one that opens the back and it still works. I think I mentioned it above but the screen is the brightest of any camera I've had. Superb. The 220's seem to go for as much as and sometimes more than the 330s [perhaps because they'e lighter, but I have been lugging my 330 around the last few weekends and its really nothing.

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