My PC-512 Borax Developer

relistan · Mar 13, 2023

Results for the film above:

Base+fog is actually pretty much the same: 0.28. Dmax is low, only 1.85 vs 2.2. And that is lower than what I got from the leader by itself. So that makes me think that the pH is drifting because of the products of development. I should have measured pH again after development.

So, more metaborate is needed. But less than 3g

gkardmw · Mar 13, 2023

Donald Qualls said:
Contrary to other comments, there's no war on washing soda; if it's gone from supermarket shelves, it's due to slow sales, not any sort of ban. My local Food Lion and Harris Teeter supermarkets keep it in the laundry aisle (not sure if they still have White King Soap, but they did as recently as a few years ago), but it will likely be at the end of the section or on the bottom shelf, relegated to the "low margin products" locations. Arm & Hammer, as far as I'm aware, is about technical grade purity sodium carbonate monohydrate (it will be after being in that cardboard box for a while, even if it wasn't when packaged); it has a trace of perfume, but I've seen no evidence of that causing problems.

There's a possibility we'll lose access to borax as a generally available product in the next few years, due to environmental or workplace safety concerns (it's already pretty much gone in Europe, hence Adox having to develop a boron-free buffer for their XT-3 developer), but sodium carbonate seems unlikely to vanish; it's pretty harmless stuff and even mining it isn't the kind of environmental disaster some other chemicals are (most deposits are shallow or on surface in land that's pretty much useless for anything else).

I also buy Twenty Mule Team borax; I understand it to be technical grade sodium tetraborate decahydrate. I find it right next to the washing soda. Another product in that section is Iron Out, which is technical grade sodium dithionite and can serve as a fogging redeveloper for B&W reversal.

Arm and Hammer claims on their website that their sodium carbonate is 88% pure - so if that impurity is water, that puts it somewhere between anhydrous and monohydrate (a mix no doubt). Anyone who leaves that box out in a semi- humid environment will watch that box expand as it sucks up more moisture. It makes quite a big difference at least in terms of quantities are concerned. For instance, if the recipe calls for 35.0 g of anhydous, you should add 40.9 g of a monohydrate. I am not sure how that would affect the development of the film. I am going to test the purity of the washing soda I have as soon as I get some calcium chloride or some other compound to react with it.

albada · Mar 13, 2023

relistan said:
Results for the film above:

Base+fog is actually pretty much the same: 0.28. Dmax is low, only 1.85 vs 2.2. And that is lower than what I got from the leader by itself. So that makes me think that the pH is drifting because of the products of development. I should have measured pH again after development.

So, more metaborate is needed. But less than 3g

I've found that leader density is not a reliable guide to development because one must assume that the shape of the H-D curve hasn't changed. Instead, I contact a step wedge on a strip of film, measure the steps with a densitometer, and compute the CI.

I rely on CI to determine exposure time and pH. But I also plot the curve using gnuplot or a spreadsheet to check its linearity. If the curve is upswept, highlights will be blown. If it's downswept, highlights will have poor contrast. Either way, my developer needs to change.

relistan · Mar 14, 2023

albada said:
I've found that leader density is not a reliable guide to development because one must assume that the shape of the H-D curve hasn't changed. Instead, I contact a step wedge on a strip of film, measure the steps with a densitometer, and compute the CI.

I rely on CI to determine exposure time and pH. But I also plot the curve using gnuplot or a spreadsheet to check its linearity. If the curve is upswept, highlights will be blown. If it's downswept, highlights will have poor contrast. Either way, my developer needs to change.

I’ve done a ton of this testing and I know that if I get the leader density correct for that film then I can adjust to get the correct contrast.

In this case I don’t need to do the latter because I know the developing agents are in the right proportion and concentration. I’m just working with pH.

What I was comparing is the leader clip I put through the exact same developer vs the one that I got when I developed some actual film. The densities should have matched and they don’t. Same film, same exposure, same time. So that indicates probably a pH drift when more film was developer vs the tiny leader clip.

relistan · Mar 14, 2023

I think I’ll work on this offline and post back if I get to some results. Will leave this thread for PC-512 Borax.

relistan · Mar 14, 2023

Here's a shot from my 1957 Zorki 4 with Voigtlander Color-Skopar 2.5/35mm on Fotoimpex CHM 100 in PC-512 Borax 1+50. Skerries, Ireland

bluechromis · Mar 14, 2023

relistan said:
Yeah, I have a big bag of ascorbic acid and no ascorbate. I did not look into it as a result. But it's a good point.

Gainer talked about a way to make sodium ascorbate from ascorbic acid and baking soda. But that involved mixing them in water so may not work with glycol.

Donald Qualls · Mar 14, 2023

bluechromis said:
make sodium ascorbate from ascorbic acid and baking soda. But that involved mixing them in water so may not work with glycol.

This should work with either washing soda or baking soda (or sodium hydroxide, if you want to keep your chemical equations simple). It ought to be sufficient to put both ingredients into the glycol and let them combine in the water after dilution.

relistan · Mar 14, 2023

Digging aground, it appears that both sodium carbonate and sodium ascorbate appear to be under 4% soluble in glycol so looks like a dead end. Thanks though.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 14, 2023

aparat said:
I just had a weird experience, possibly scary, well, not quite, but here it goes. I asked @relistan about semi-stand development, and he directed me to the awesome video by @Andrew O'Neill so I went to YouTube and watched the video. As I am watching it, I am having a strange feeling of déjà vu, but I explain it to myself as possibly being on the same wavelength as Andy, regarding the benzotriazole, etc. Well, I go to the Photographers' Formulary online store and search for benzotriazole, planning to buy some to try semi-stand development. I discover that it is already in my cart!

There are two possibilities: (1) somebody already put it there for me, and (2) I had already planned to try semi-stand, and I had already watched Andy's video in in its entirety, and I had already gone to the Photographers' Formulary online store and put benzotriazole in the shopping cart, planning to check out later.

Clearly, option 2 is more likely. The weird, and potentially scary part of it is, my memory may be going. Well, maybe not just yet, but that was a weird experience. Possibly the weirdest yet with regard to photography.

Don't feel bad. I wanted to try Thornton's Two-Bath, so I needed to get my hands on some Sodium Metaborate. I went in the darkroom to see if I had any on hand but couldn't find any, so I ordered 1kg. The following day, while developing some film, and to help pass the monotony, I was flipping through Adams' book, The Print. Adams mentions the use of Kodalk (Kodak balanced alkali)...which is Kodak's tradename for Sodium Metaborate! I had completely forgotten that! And of course, I already had two, 500g bottles of Kodalk on hand! Now I have 2kg! One can never have enough Sodium Metaborate.... or Kodalk

John Wiegerink · Mar 14, 2023

Andrew O'Neill said:
Don't feel bad. I wanted to try Thornton's Two-Bath, so I needed to get my hands on some Sodium Metaborate. I went in the darkroom to see if I had any on hand but couldn't find any, so I ordered 1kg. The following day, while developing some film, and to help pass the monotony, I was flipping through Adams' book, The Print. Adams mentions the use of Kodalk (Kodak balanced alkali)...which is Kodak's tradename for Sodium Metaborate! I had completely forgotten that! And of course, I already had two, 500g bottles of Kodalk on hand! Now I have 2kg! One can never have enough Sodium Metaborate.... or Kodalk

Yup, I don't have 20lbs of sodium metaborate, but I do have 20lbs of Kodalk.

Andy, one can never have too much of either!

bluechromis · Mar 30, 2023

The suggested developing times for PC-512 are fairly short. What would PC-512 be like with 1+100 dilution instead of 1+50? Has anyone tried that?

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 30, 2023

bluechromis said:
The suggested developing times for PC-512 are fairly short. What would PC-512 be like with 1+100 dilution instead of 1+50? Has anyone tried that?

relistan · Mar 30, 2023

bluechromis said:
The suggested developing times for PC-512 are fairly short. What would PC-512 be like with 1+100 dilution instead of 1+50? Has anyone tried that?

As above, Andy tested 1+100. My caution is that I have no idea myself since I haven’t tested it. I expect somewhat sharper grain and some fog. But his results looked good in the video.

bluechromis · Mar 30, 2023

relistan said:
As above, Andy tested 1+100. My caution is that I have no idea myself since I haven’t tested it. I expect somewhat sharper grain and some fog. But his results looked good in the video.

Thanks.

albada · Mar 31, 2023

Magenta Mud

A couple of people contributing to this thread are attempting to convert the formula for PC-512 Borax to use sodium metaborate instead of borax. Here's what happened to a developer I formulated using those ingredients:

Pretty, isn't it? And I was developing only 1/8th of a roll in 220 ml of soup, so I hate to imagine what a complete roll would have done. The film strip, shown on right, was very thin. Here's the one-liter formula I used:

EDTA disodium 1

Ascorbic acid 4

S. Metaborate 4

Phenidone 0.05 ( in a 2% PG solution)

S. Carbonate 0.65

This magenta problem occurred in an experiment I tried nine years ago, but I neglected to pursue it. That formula lacked EDTA and carbonate, so they are not the cause.

The good news is that I was able to clear the magenta. Adding ascorbic acid and borax had no effect. But adding only 0.5 g/L of sodium sulfite quickly cleared it. Oxidized phenidone is orange, so I'll guess this magenta is from oxidized ascorbic acid. And that makes me wonder:

Has any of you encountered this?

Mark

bluechromis · Apr 1, 2023

albada said:
Magenta Mud

A couple of people contributing to this thread are attempting to convert the formula for PC-512 Borax to use sodium metaborate instead of borax. Here's what happened to a developer I formulated using those ingredients:

View attachment 334389

Pretty, isn't it? And I was developing only 1/8th of a roll in 220 ml of soup, so I hate to imagine what a complete roll would have done. The film strip, shown on right, was very thin. Here's the one-liter formula I used:

EDTA disodium 1
Ascorbic acid 4
S. Metaborate 4
Phenidone 0.05 ( in a 2% PG solution)
S. Carbonate 0.65

This magenta problem occurred in an experiment I tried nine years ago, but I neglected to pursue it. That formula lacked EDTA and carbonate, so they are not the cause.

The good news is that I was able to clear the magenta. Adding ascorbic acid and borax had no effect. But adding only 0.5 g/L of sodium sulfite quickly cleared it. Oxidized phenidone is orange, so I'll guess this magenta is from oxidized ascorbic acid. And that makes me wonder:

Has any of you encountered this?

Mark

Whaaa ! If nothing else you else, you sell the magenta stuff as the new miracle energy drink on E-bay. Be sure to mention that the ingredients are "super additive".

bluechromis · Apr 1, 2023

bluechromis said:
Whaaa ! If nothing else, you can sell the magenta stuff as the new miracle energy drink on E-bay. Be sure to mention that the ingredients are "super additive".

relistan · Apr 1, 2023

albada said:
Magenta Mud

A couple of people contributing to this thread are attempting to convert the formula for PC-512 Borax to use sodium metaborate instead of borax. Here's what happened to a developer I formulated using those ingredients:

View attachment 334389

Pretty, isn't it? And I was developing only 1/8th of a roll in 220 ml of soup, so I hate to imagine what a complete roll would have done. The film strip, shown on right, was very thin. Here's the one-liter formula I used:

EDTA disodium 1
Ascorbic acid 4
S. Metaborate 4
Phenidone 0.05 ( in a 2% PG solution)
S. Carbonate 0.65

This magenta problem occurred in an experiment I tried nine years ago, but I neglected to pursue it. That formula lacked EDTA and carbonate, so they are not the cause.

The good news is that I was able to clear the magenta. Adding ascorbic acid and borax had no effect. But adding only 0.5 g/L of sodium sulfite quickly cleared it. Oxidized phenidone is orange, so I'll guess this magenta is from oxidized ascorbic acid. And that makes me wonder:

Has any of you encountered this?

Mark

Weird, Mark. No, I got regular developer and ok negatives, but thinner, from my one experiment above. With the buffer lacking, the pH drifts which I think is the reason it is thin for the same times, even at the same pH. I haven’t messed with it again yet will start a new thread when I do. I used 1.5g of metaborate with the standard PC-512 agents.

I can only guess at the reasons for the color. I assume it is the dye from the film reacting with the developer somehow.

John Wiegerink · Apr 1, 2023

Mark,
I never had a turn in color like that when I mixed my batch using Kodalk. When I get back home I'm going to play with PC-512 a little more and see what I can get out of it.

Donald Qualls · Apr 1, 2023

I wonder...

The chiral opposite of ascorbic acid is called erythorbic acid. "Eryth-" is a root that means "red" (as in "erythrocytes" as a fancy name for red blood cells), leading me to suspect erythorbic acid would have a red-to-pink color in solution. That, in turn, makes me wonder if something in the development process isn't flipping your ascorbate to erythorbate (this is often a matter of just two bonds swapping places on a single atom of the molecule -- as for instance with dextrose and levulose).

JWMster · Oct 9, 2023

Karl, your PC-512 has a lot of virtues I'm attracted to. Your photography... yeah.... even more so. I think the temptation in my case is to mistake the conjunction as it delivers what you want and is your magic bullet, but mine might still be out there somewhere (or somewhere else).

Not as clever or chemically inclined as you are, I've collected an inventory I'm trying to use up. Started with Perceptol... but the speed issue!!! Chased a lot of "it works with a Jobo stuff" and settled on D23, but am now back to ID11... 'cause I've got it on hand and want to use it up. Gee.... I've got a chunk of that AND D23 and even Perceptol. Added some Diafine to ADD speed even... so I'm hoping to NOT get sucked in to the vortex of yet another appealing solution.

But heck, I love your output!!! For me, a magic bullet looks like a lot of subtle grays... as in some of your shots... and it's easy to mix up for a tank or two (the one shot is genius!), it's a single bath developer for simplicity's sake, it has to keep, and it has to NOT kill you even slowly... or the fish at the end of my pipe. And... truth be told, it's gotta love the mix of inversion-and-rotary I'm doing these days. Better, it has to have long enough development that there's some fudging room. That's the working list. You've nailed the output list already.

Have you worked this with sheet film or 120... or tried any other films with it... or known others to love the results with other films? Always love to hear more. I'm pretty much settling in for using 120 film with ISO 400, and sheet film.... I'd do the same but for the - you guessed it - inventory of my "try anything" period there, too. Please keep us up to date. Thanks! and thanks for the ingenuity, perspicacity, and pugnaciousness to do this, and the humility and magnamity to share.

Andrew O'Neill · Oct 9, 2023

JWMster said:
Karl, your PC-512 has a lot of virtues I'm attracted to. Your photography... yeah.... even more so. I think the temptation in my case is to mistake the conjunction as it delivers what you want and is your magic bullet, but mine might still be out there somewhere (or somewhere else).

Not as clever or chemically inclined as you are, I've collected an inventory I'm trying to use up. Started with Perceptol... but the speed issue!!! Chased a lot of "it works with a Jobo stuff" and settled on D23, but am now back to ID11... 'cause I've got it on hand and want to use it up. Gee.... I've got a chunk of that AND D23 and even Perceptol. Added some Diafine to ADD speed even... so I'm hoping to NOT get sucked in to the vortex of yet another appealing solution.

But heck, I love your output!!! For me, a magic bullet looks like a lot of subtle grays... as in some of your shots... and it's easy to mix up for a tank or two (the one shot is genius!), it's a single bath developer for simplicity's sake, it has to keep, and it has to NOT kill you even slowly... or the fish at the end of my pipe. And... truth be told, it's gotta love the mix of inversion-and-rotary I'm doing these days. Better, it has to have long enough development that there's some fudging room. That's the working list. You've nailed the output list already.

Have you worked this with sheet film or 120... or tried any other films with it... or known others to love the results with other films? Always love to hear more. I'm pretty much settling in for using 120 film with ISO 400, and sheet film.... I'd do the same but for the - you guessed it - inventory of my "try anything" period there, too. Please keep us up to date. Thanks! and thanks for the ingenuity, perspicacity, and pugnaciousness to do this, and the humility and magnamity to share.

I have tried it with CatLABS sheet film. I have a video in this thread back on page four...

JWMster · Oct 10, 2023

Andrew: Thanks. I did watch that. Will re-do...'cause I think I have that film or the direct-from-china equivalent.

relistan · Oct 10, 2023

JWMster said:
Karl, your PC-512 has a lot of virtues I'm attracted to. Your photography... yeah.... even more so. I think the temptation in my case is to mistake the conjunction as it delivers what you want and is your magic bullet, but mine might still be out there somewhere (or somewhere else).

Not as clever or chemically inclined as you are, I've collected an inventory I'm trying to use up. Started with Perceptol... but the speed issue!!! Chased a lot of "it works with a Jobo stuff" and settled on D23, but am now back to ID11... 'cause I've got it on hand and want to use it up. Gee.... I've got a chunk of that AND D23 and even Perceptol. Added some Diafine to ADD speed even... so I'm hoping to NOT get sucked in to the vortex of yet another appealing solution.

But heck, I love your output!!! For me, a magic bullet looks like a lot of subtle grays... as in some of your shots... and it's easy to mix up for a tank or two (the one shot is genius!), it's a single bath developer for simplicity's sake, it has to keep, and it has to NOT kill you even slowly... or the fish at the end of my pipe. And... truth be told, it's gotta love the mix of inversion-and-rotary I'm doing these days. Better, it has to have long enough development that there's some fudging room. That's the working list. You've nailed the output list already.

Thank you! Those are really kind words. I very much appreciate that!

JWMster said:
Have you worked this with sheet film or 120... or tried any other films with it... or known others to love the results with other films? Always love to hear more. I'm pretty much settling in for using 120 film with ISO 400, and sheet film.... I'd do the same but for the - you guessed it - inventory of my "try anything" period there, too. Please keep us up to date. Thanks! and thanks for the ingenuity, perspicacity, and pugnaciousness to do this, and the humility and magnamity to share.

I have shot Kentmere films in 120 with it and have been pleased. Here are a couple on Kentmere 400 from my Pentacon Six:
and
Here's my Bronica S2a on Kentmere 400:

Thanks again.

My PC-512 Borax Developer

relistan

gkardmw

albada

relistan

relistan

relistan

bluechromis

Donald Qualls

relistan

Andrew O'Neill

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John Wiegerink

bluechromis

Andrew O'Neill

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relistan

bluechromis

albada

bluechromis

bluechromis

relistan

John Wiegerink

Donald Qualls

JWMster

Andrew O'Neill

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JWMster

relistan

My PC-512 Borax Developer

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