My PC-512 Borax Developer

relistan · Nov 21, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
I like the looks tone wise. Looks like pretty harsh noonday sun. Shadows are good and highlights are not blown. Nice, nice, nice!

Thank you, John! I appreciate the encouragment. It was mid-day in late April. The tone is what had originally sold me on this ratio of developing agents in testing. And yeah, I've found this developer handles the kind of hard light I like to shoot in very well.

John Wiegerink · Nov 22, 2022

relistan said:
Thank you, John! I appreciate the encouragment. It was mid-day in late April. The tone is what had originally sold me on this ratio of developing agents in testing. And yeah, I've found this developer handles the kind of hard light I like to shoot in very well.

It wasn't an encouragement, it was a compliment. It's as close to being perfect without being too perfect. If you know what I mean.

relistan said:
Thank you, John! I appreciate the encouragment. It was mid-day in late April. The tone is what had originally sold me on this ratio of developing agents in testing. And yeah, I've found this developer handles the kind of hard light I like to shoot in very well.

Karl,
My comment wasn't about encouragement, but was meant as a compliment. I don't think you need any encouragement, since it seems you have everything pretty much figured out. I can't wait to get back to where my chemicals are to try this formula out with the Kodalk(sodium metaborate) version. The films I use mainly are HP5+, Delta 100, Delta 400, Foma 100 and Foma 400 in that order. I do have some Fuji Acros II also and that film seems to work really well in almost anything. Those are in 120 and 4X5. Foma 100, Foma 200 and Delta 100 in 35mm, but I like those in Xtol-R or Pyrocat-HDC. Of course, I see what they look like in PC512K also. JohnW

Cubao · Nov 22, 2022

relistan said:
So far XTOL times - 15% seems to be about right.

Did I get you right Xtol (1+1, stock?) times minus 15% as general starting point?

Trask · Nov 22, 2022

I hope folks who give PC-512 a try will post some photos here on the Photo -- I for one would be interested to see what gives.

Donald Qualls · Nov 22, 2022

Something else that occurred to me relative to PC-512 -- I suspect it could be used as a paper developer by substituting a sodium carbonate solution for the borax Part B. Don't know what the tray life would be, but there's at least one PC based paper developer on the commercial market...

relistan · Nov 22, 2022

John Wiegerink said:
My comment wasn't about encouragement, but was meant as a compliment. I don't think you need any encouragement, since it seems you have everything pretty much figured out. I can't wait to get back to where my chemicals are to try this formula out with the Kodalk(sodium metaborate) version. The films I use mainly are HP5+, Delta 100, Delta 400, Foma 100 and Foma 400 in that order. I do have some Fuji Acros II also and that film seems to work really well in almost anything. Those are in 120 and 4X5. Foma 100, Foma 200 and Delta 100 in 35mm, but I like those in Xtol-R or Pyrocat-HDC. Of course, I see what they look like in PC512K also. JohnW

Look forward to seeing some of that!

Cubao said:
Did I get you right Xtol (1+1, stock?) times minus 15% as general starting point?

Yes, so far for the films I have tried, that is about right. Of course it will depend on a lot of factors, but that should get you in the ball park.

Trask said:
I hope folks who give PC-512 a try will post some photos here on the Photo -- I for one would be interested to see what gives.

I would love to see some others try it out. You can see some examples on the blog post I linked at the top or on my Flickr stream in my signature on this post.

Donald Qualls said:
Something else that occurred to me relative to PC-512 -- I suspect it could be used as a paper developer by substituting a sodium carbonate solution for the borax Part B. Don't know what the tray life would be, but there's at least one PC based paper developer on the commercial market...

Yes I think that's probably correct. Gainer used PC-Glycol/Carbonate as a paper developer with some success.

Donald Qualls · Nov 23, 2022

relistan said:
Yes, so far for the films I have tried, that is about right. Of course it will depend on a lot of factors, but that should get you in the ball park.

I think the main question was whether it's Xtol stock minus 15%, or Xtol 1+1 minus 15%.

relistan said:
Gainer used PC-Glycol/Carbonate as a paper developer with some success.

I don't know all Gainer's stuff, didn't even know about PC-Glycol until this thread. I was aware of PC-TEA, but TEA is less available than glycol (possibly not true before vaping became big business) and it has to be even hotter to get stuff dissolved, so I haven't had an interest in trying it.

relistan · Nov 23, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
I think the main question was whether it's Xtol stock minus 15%, or Xtol 1+1 minus 15%.

Oh you are right, thanks! I misread that. XTOL stock is what I meant.

Donald Qualls said:
I don't know all Gainer's stuff, didn't even know about PC-Glycol until this thread. I was aware of PC-TEA, but TEA is less available than glycol (possibly not true before vaping became big business) and it has to be even hotter to get stuff dissolved, so I haven't had an interest in trying it.

Yeah, no worries, I was working on ascorbic acid developers so I read everything I could find. He experimented with both (and water-based as well). He eventually settled on TEA because it was convenient not to need any other alkali. But TEA is rather nasty and harder to get and so I, like you, also never wanted to mess with it. Glycol is nice because it's pretty inert and odorless, is easy to get (now), and works great to preserve stuff, and his discovery: particularly ascorbic acid.

Peter Schrager · Nov 23, 2022

I've done 2 cycles of the 512 on foma 120/100 speed film...as per your recommendation the first roll is overdeveloped...about 6:45@ 68 degrees
The second roll I did a prewash for 1 minute and developed for 6:15@68 it came out looking thin. I see potential as a homebrew but I make my own pyrocat Mc and it does make lovely negatives with foma 100 ..
Appreciate your work effort

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 23, 2022

Peter Schrager said:
the first roll is overdeveloped...about 6:45@ 68 degrees
The second roll I did a prewash for 1 minute and developed for 6:15@68 it came out looking thin.

Does prewash have such a huge impact?

Peter Schrager · Nov 24, 2022

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Does prewash have such a huge impact?

I'm not interested in starting a long thread about the benefits or cons of using a prewash. It's just something I usually do. when you use staining developers like pyrocat it is highly recommended that you do do a prewash for up to 3 minutes. It's just a question of adjusting your developing time to do so.
happy thanksgiving everyone!!
Peter

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Nov 24, 2022

Peter Schrager said:
I'm not interested in starting a long thread about the benefits or cons of using a prewash.

Neither am I interested. Your own report says that you got overdeveloped negatives with 6:45 minutes and underdeveloped negatives at with 6:15 minutes. Thirty seconds difference in development time can't be the reason for such a wild swing in the results.

relistan · Nov 24, 2022

Peter Schrager said:
I've done 2 cycles of the 512 on foma 120/100 speed film...as per your recommendation the first roll is overdeveloped...about 6:45@ 68 degrees
The second roll I did a prewash for 1 minute and developed for 6:15@68 it came out looking thin. I see potential as a homebrew but I make my own pyrocat Mc and it does make lovely negatives with foma 100 ..
Appreciate your work effort

Hi Peter, thanks for trying it out. I'm surprised as Raghu was also, that you would get such a huge difference in such a short time difference. You would normally see a bit of density difference but not an extreme amount. As I mentioned I have only tested extensively with the films I posted (Ilford Delta 100, Fotoimpex CHM) and I was suggesting that additional testing was needed with other films.

The suggestion about starting point times was just a starting point. When doing testing for a new film I usually shoot the same frame at 5 different exposures (-2, -1, 0, +1, +2), cut the film from the camera (35mm obviously), develop it, and then repeat, until I'm happy with where I am. Doing that is hard with my M2, so I use my Yashica Electro 35 GSN because the whole back opens. I'm sorry you didn't get results you liked. If you'd like to continue experimenting, I'd be happy to help with suggestions. I also like Fomapan 100. Do you have the ability to measure density? If so (no worries if not), I would be interested in your expectations for correct development density and what you ended up with.

relistan · Nov 24, 2022

@Peter Schrager thinking more about this, where did you get the 6min + development time? When I look at the times for XTOL stock in 120 for Fomapan 100, it says 5-6 minutes in the data sheet. Massive Dev Chart says the same. I usually would have done 6 mins, which brings you to just over 5 mins (6 mins * 85% = 5.1 mins) with PC-512 Borax. That you ended up with too thin negatives at 6 mins seems a little strange to me, given that. Did you use the same pre-mixed batch of Borax solution for both rolls? Were the developing agents fully dissolved in the Glycol?

Peter Schrager · Nov 24, 2022

relistan said:
@Peter Schrager thinking more about this, where did you get the 6min + development time? When I look at the times for XTOL stock in 120 for Fomapan 100, it says 5-6 minutes in the data sheet. Massive Dev Chart says the same. I usually would have done 6 mins, which brings you to just over 5 mins (6 mins * 85% = 5.1 mins) with PC-512 Borax. That you ended up with too thin negatives at 6 mins seems a little strange to me, given that. Did you use the same pre-mixed batch of Borax solution for both rolls? Were the developing agents fully dissolved in the Glycol?

All films developed in 512 from same batch.
Agents fully dissolved in glycol...if you have hot plate stirrer it goes really fast.
I should have added 1 minute for the prewash...
As per my first batch it seems like a very aggressive developer; then the prewash..
Fooled me and it came out soft .I'm certain around 7:15 is going to be fine

relistan · Nov 25, 2022

Peter Schrager said:
All films developed in 512 from same batch.
Agents fully dissolved in glycol...if you have hot plate stirrer it goes really fast.
I should have added 1 minute for the prewash...
As per my first batch it seems like a very aggressive developer; then the prewash..
Fooled me and it came out soft .I'm certain around 7:15 is going to be fine

Ah, I see, you are including the pre-wash time in the development time. Still seems long, but will look forward to your results if you get another chance.

relistan · Nov 26, 2022

I had an hour today so I tested a clip of expired Tri-X that has been in the freezer (Arista Premium 400). Looks like time is going to be about the same as XTOL stock, actually, but will wait until it's dry and I can check density and also scan it to post. I tested on film leader first, to get a sense of Dmax and adjusted upward to the full 7 mins before developing.

albada · Nov 26, 2022

@relistan, did you have time to try dissolving borax or sodium metaborate in the glycol?

relistan · Nov 26, 2022

albada said:
@relistan, did you have time to try dissolving borax or sodium metaborate in the glycol?

I didn't yet, but if I'm Iucky, I will hopefully have more than an hour tomorrow to try. I will post when I do!

albada · Nov 29, 2022

@relistan, I tried your idea of dissolving the developers in PG. But I did this with the ID-62 paper developer. Here's my posting, which includes a picture of the poor man's hot plate that I used, which you might like.
Success! The developer works well, and the PG solution shows no sign of precipitate after two hours in the refrigerator.

relistan · Dec 3, 2022

albada said:
@relistan, I tried your idea of dissolving the developers in PG. But I did this with the ID-62 paper developer. Here's my posting, which includes a picture of the poor man's hot plate that I used, which you might like.
Success! The developer works well, and the PG solution shows no sign of precipitate after two hours in the refrigerator.

Thanks Mark, I replied over there!

relistan · Dec 3, 2022

Tri-X 400 @ 400 — PC-512 Borax 1+50 7 mins

Here's the box speed frame from the test roll of Tri-X I developed last week for 7 mins. This is the full frame, and then a zoom in on the center to better show the grain (click the thumbnail). I think it may be slightly over-developed at this time, will back off to 6.5 next time.

It's a somewhat flat scene, but given the weather at the moment, this is about as good a job as I can do on an example shot.

As it's a not a solvent developer the grain is sharper, but I would not say it's hugely more pronounced that with D-76.

albada · Dec 4, 2022

It looks very grainy, like Tri-X from decades ago, but that could be due to sharpening in the scanning software. How was the negative scanned?
To gauge grain, it would be best to take a photo of either of a microscope's image of the negative, or a print from an enlarger with a 50mm lens and its head at max height.

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2022

albada said:
It looks very grainy, like Tri-X from decades ago, but that could be due to sharpening in the scanning software. How was the negative scanned?
To gauge grain, it would be best to take a photo of either of a microscope's image of the negative, or a print from an enlarger with a 50mm lens and its head at max height.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. The grain seems to be kind of an odd shape. It almost looks like scanning artifacts instead of grain.

relistan · Dec 6, 2022

albada said:
It looks very grainy, like Tri-X from decades ago, but that could be due to sharpening in the scanning software. How was the negative scanned?
To gauge grain, it would be best to take a photo of either of a microscope's image of the negative, or a print from an enlarger with a 50mm lens and its head at max height.

John Wiegerink said:
Yes, I was thinking the same thing. The grain seems to be kind of an odd shape. It almost looks like scanning artifacts instead of grain.

When I get some more time I will try to get a better view. I am used to looking at grain like this so it made sense to me. I won't be printing for awhile, but I will see if I can get a shot through the grain focuser on the enlarger.

My PC-512 Borax Developer

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