New (2019 version) HC-110 developer not the same?

mshchem · Aug 7, 2020

To assume any reason for these changes other than continuity of business, and an effort to make a profit for the pensioners, is Nuts. Kodak Alaris is trying to unload these businesses ASAP. The color negative paper and Kodak Alaris chemistry business has been sold to in the words of one of our US Senators "Communist China". Could the "secret formula" for HC-110 have fallen into enemy hands?

Time will tell. Elon Musk got the US back into manned spaceflight, we may need a "Manhattan Project" funnel millions of Federal dollars into "The HC-110 and XTOL GAP!"

Pardon my flippant treatment of the subject.

DREW WILEY · Aug 7, 2020

All kind of things might have changed, including enviro and hazmat rules, related unavailability of certain ingredients, lack of marketability in different countries or states with differing rules, simplification of manufacture (itself related to facilities capacity), who knows? Kodak has been selling off its fingers and toes, then arms and legs, one by one, and apparently finds it more convenient just to license its name or to subcontract. That's been going on quite awhile now. But nobody needs a rude awakening accidentally finding out that a replacement product doesn't store as well as the previous version. This can hypothetically apply to even bottles bought "new" if there's no expiration date attached to the batch number, and they've sat on a shelf a long time prior to purchase. It wouldn't be such an issue if the HC-110 hadn't earned such a sterling reputation for stability. If that key property is lost, it simply ain't the same thing either qualitatively or functionally. That doesn't mean I won't buy the new product when my old stock runs out, but that we'll have to be a lot more religious about the freshness of the concentrate itself. So we'll just have to keep an eye out for what the new reality actually is. But that's an independent question from truly replicating the old formula - a distinction a couple of you can't even seem to comprehend, or why it might be quite important to someone else. Don't worry, nobody is going to ask you to do it ! Mshchem has signed with Elon Musk to do it, as he fiddles with his made in China calculator sitting on a lawn chair made in China, sipping ice tea from a cup made in China.

mshchem · Aug 7, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
All kind of things might have changed, including enviro and hazmat rules, related unavailability of certain ingredients, lack of marketability in different countries or states with differing rules, simplification of manufacture (itself related to facilities capacity), who knows? Kodak has been selling off its fingers and toes, then arms and legs, one by one, and apparently finds it more convenient just to license its name or to subcontract. That's been going on quite awhile now. But nobody needs a rude awakening accidentally finding out that a replacement product doesn't store as well as the previous version. This can hypothetically apply to even bottles bought "new" if there's no expiration date attached to the batch number, and they've sat on a shelf a long time prior to purchase. It wouldn't be such an issue if the HC-110 hadn't earned such a sterling reputation for stability. If that key property is lost, it simply ain't the same thing either qualitatively or functionally. That doesn't mean I won't buy the new product when my old stock runs out, but that we'll have to be a lot more religious about the freshness of the concentrate itself. So we'll just have to keep an eye out for what the new reality actually is. But that's an independent question from truly replicating the old formula - a distinction a couple of you can't even seem to comprehend, or why it might be quite important to someone else. Don't worry, nobody is going to ask you to do it ! Mshchem has signed with Elon Musk to do it, as he fiddles with his made in China calculator sitting on a lawn chair made in China, sipping ice tea from a cup made in China.

Ask my wife. My rule is don't buy goods from countries that don't have free and fair elections. I buy from, by definition liberal democracies. Yes, I still buy USA made products, but I don't buy from Amazon. I do not buy Chinese stuff, because slaves build junk. I'm looking at my camera cabinet, the only thing not made in Germany, Japan, or Sweden is my Nikon D850 (Thailand). The D6 is from Japan. I will not buy Nikon's non Japan made lenses. Thus my 25 year old AF-D primes and my brand new zooms.

Environmental regulations have had a huge impact, on product reliability . I drink tap water from plastic cups that I picked out of the trash that my wife tried to throw away because too old.
Maybe Kodak should put NEW and NOT IMPROVED on the chemistry.
I stockpiled XTOL and Kodak Rapid fix when Tetenal announced. And then I have a emergency Civil Defense stockpile that is flood and impact resistant, just the tip of the iceberg.

DREW WILEY · Aug 7, 2020

But do you have a can opener in your underground bunker for all that Microdol? How do noodles tasted in Microdol broth? Very few US brand name products are still made in the US. Deceptive labeling is rampant. And many US corporations have re-incorporated off-shore to avoid taxes, labor laws, and yes, those pesky environmental regulations that have spared the health of millions here. It's not correct to call it outsourcing; I prefer the appellation, bait and switch. Don't blame the Chinese for that; they merely took advantage of what the greed of the movers and shakers on Wall Street not only initiated, but often insisted on, and which all the mindless lemmings followed over a cliff. I was a professional buyer and saw it all, and am very glad to be retired from that downward spiral mess.

mshchem · Aug 7, 2020

I have a stockpile of Swing-a-way can openers. The merchandise card has a little picture of the US Skylab space station. These were used to open canned food on board Skylab. Mergers and multi-national corporations have destroyed the NAFTA region. The US consumer begged for cheap crap, so Walmart told suppliers is you don't meet the China price you are out.
The industry I was in referred to it as LCC sourcing, low cost country, (my comment of Large Communist County, wasn't well received )

You are singing to the choir. Meanwhile back to the topic. I don't have an answer to the HC-110 crisis other than make your own D-76. If you can find any decent chemicals. All that's made in China as well.

DREW WILEY · Aug 7, 2020

The big boxes, especially Wal Mart and Home Depot, deliberately engineered the failure of quite a few US mfgs so that they could shift to Chinese mfg. I don't want to derail the thread, but do know a lot of details. I mostly imported equipment from Germany. Nothing good was left in the US unless it was actually mfg by a German or Japanese company producing it here.

alanrockwood · Aug 8, 2020

Does anyone know if the new HC-110 is the same as LegacyPro L110? If so, and given the fact that L110 has been available for several years, maybe someone could comment on the shelf life of L110. That might give us an idea of the shelf life of the new HC-110.

pentaxuser · Aug 8, 2020

mshchem said:
To assume any reason for these changes other than continuity of business, and an effort to make a profit for the pensioners, is Nuts. Kodak Alaris is trying to unload these businesses ASAP. The color negative paper and Kodak Alaris chemistry business has been sold to in the words of one of our US Senators "Communist China". Could the "secret formula" for HC-110 have fallen into enemy hands?

Time will tell. Elon Musk got the US back into manned spaceflight, we may need a "Manhattan Project" funnel millions of Federal dollars into "The HC-110 and XTOL GAP!"

Pardon my flippant treatment of the subject.

General Turgidson there will be no fighting in the War Room

pentaxuser

takilmaboxer · Aug 8, 2020

Free and fair elections in America??

Just mix your own, it's easy, if you can find the ingredients! D-23 forever!

Wallendo · Aug 8, 2020

alanrockwood said:
Does anyone know if the new HC-110 is the same as LegacyPro L110? If so, and given the fact that L110 has been available for several years, maybe someone could comment on the shelf life of L110. That might give us an idea of the shelf life of the new HC-110.

I have used L110 in the past. I noticed no difference in my negatives (although I don't have a densitometer and did no side-by-side tests. I found that an opened bottle showed no identifiable change over 6 months. I used the whole 500ml bottle during that period.

I like having long-lasting developers around just in case, but L110 is cheap enough that I can just buy a new bottle periodically if needed. That said, I did pick up a bottle of old HC-11 recently, so I should be set for a while.

mshchem · Aug 8, 2020

pentaxuser said:
General Turgidson there will be no fighting in the War Room

pentaxuser

Best movie ever.
"I'm beginning to smell a big fat Commie rat."

mshchem · Aug 8, 2020

takilmaboxer said:
Free and fair elections in America??
Just mix your own, it's easy, if you can find the ingredients! D-23 forever!

I was talking about Japan, Germany and Sweden. US - Ha! And yes D-23 is all ya need!

D-23 sets you free!!!

NB23 · Aug 8, 2020

Should I be changing my name to ND-23?

Disconnekt · Aug 8, 2020

alanrockwood said:
Does anyone know if the new HC-110 is the same as LegacyPro L110? If so, and given the fact that L110 has been available for several years, maybe someone could comment on the shelf life of L110. That might give us an idea of the shelf life of the new HC-110.

I've got a bottle of L110 in November 2019 and used maybe half the bottle so far. It does have a very tiny amount of crystals in the bottom and has a darkish caramel color to it, but has been working fine so far.

DREW WILEY · Aug 8, 2020

I thought D23 was a derivative of Soylent Green with extra sodium sulfite added to slow down the decomposition odor,
just like the so-called salads served at fast-food joints.

mshchem · Aug 8, 2020

My wife bought some Impossible fake hamburger. I think it's a product of a mad scientist. It has some hemeglobin stuff added. I will stick to my black bean burgers and a good BBQ beef brisket when I feel carnivorous.

Donald Qualls · Aug 9, 2020

If I have to start mixing my own developers, starting tomorrow, I can do everything I need with chemicals that aren't sold for photography. Sodium sulfite is readily available from Amazon sellers, sodium thiosulfate from pool suppliers, lye from hardware stores (if you can find one big enough) or Amazon, acetaminophen comes in tablets (annoying to crush, but the tableting wax and starch doesn't seem to cause problems) or as powder in capsules (but the tablets are quite a bit cheaper). That gets me Parodinal and fixer. White vinegar 1+1 with water makes serviceable stop bath; a few drops of bromocresol purple (I got my from Amazon) can be added to serve as an indicator, if desired. Instant coffee isn't going anywhere, nor is Vitamin C or laundry soda. Now I've got a range of developers (Caffenol can be mixed in multiple flavors).

Metol and phenidone/dimezone S are the most needed photography-specific chemicals. Metol, at least, can be made from p-aminophenol, which we can get from acetaminophen/paracetamol. We'll be back to impurities possibly causing skin irritations, but we lived with that for decades before manufacturing processes improved.

Film will be the bottleneck before processing chemicals.

For HC-110, I first used it in high school, around 1974, and I still have a bottle of the old (pre-2010) syrup -- and since I found Xtol (which leads to Eco-Pro and Mytol) I may never run out of HC-110 (or I might be convinced to sell the bottle -- I'd have to check that it's unopened).

alanrockwood · Aug 9, 2020

alanrockwood said:
Does anyone know if the new HC-110 is the same as LegacyPro L110? If so, and given the fact that L110 has been available for several years, maybe someone could comment on the shelf life of L110. That might give us an idea of the shelf life of the new HC-110.

By the way, the last time I checked at Freestyle (yesterday) the prices for HC-110 and L110 are almost the same on the basis of per liter of dilution B. The main difference is that L110 can be bought in smaller volume increments.

Brady Eklund · Aug 12, 2020

Any idea what the precipitate forming in the bottom of opened bottles is? The developer is still working as expected as far as I can tell, but obviously some ingredient is falling out of solution. Thankfully I use the solution up quickly enough that I haven't noticed much difference, though I have been very slightly increasing concentration as the developer ages and oxidizes. Next time I need more developer I'll have to look at my other options, this was a shoddily done substitution by Kodak.

bnxvs · Aug 12, 2020

Brady Eklund said:
Any idea what the precipitate forming in the bottom of opened bottles is? The developer is still working as expected as far as I can tell, but obviously some ingredient is falling out of solution. Thankfully I use the solution up quickly enough that I haven't noticed much difference, though I have been very slightly increasing concentration as the developer ages and oxidizes. Next time I need more developer I'll have to look at my other options, this was a shoddily done substitution by Kodak.

I think it is hydroquinone.

MattKing · Aug 12, 2020

I expect it is just congealed HC-110. If the activity is apparently unchanged, it is just becoming slightly more concentrated - a result that people didn't experience with the old, more complex to manufacture but more durable version.

bnxvs · Aug 13, 2020

The new HC-110 is an aqueous solution. Substances in this solution have different degrees of solubility and different concentrations. Judging by the MSDS data, hydroquinone is the most prone to precipitation. There is a lot of it (practically at the limit of solubility in water at a temperature of 15C). Other substances, except for potassium sulfite (which will definitely not precipitate even when the solution is very cold), are contained in minimal amounts, or are liquids (diethylene glycol, DEA). So I quite reasonably believe that it was hydroquinone that could have precipitated.
And for a photochemist, the term "congealed HC-110" looks strange.

DWThomas · Aug 13, 2020

alanrockwood said:
By the way, the last time I checked at Freestyle (yesterday) the prices for HC-110 and L110 are almost the same on the basis of per liter of dilution B. The main difference is that L110 can be bought in smaller volume increments.

Thanks for this note, I am glad to see this about L110 in a smaller size. If the new revised HC110 no longer has the multi-year keeping properties, I would prefer to buy less than one liter at a time since I might end up disposing more of it as aged out than I would use for developing. I normally use the stuff one shot at 1+63 and it takes me quite a while to go through a liter. I still have some of my stash of the syrupy stuff left, but the day to consider what comes next is moving closer.

bnxvs · Aug 14, 2020

I don't understand why everyone suddenly decided that the new HC-110 will not be stored for a long time? From the analysis of its composition, it can be seen that it contains a large amount of potassium sulfite. Comparable to Rodinal and similar concentrates.
As for the formation of sediment - I think it is enough just to slightly heat the bottle in hot water and shake it to dissolve. It's not a big problem.
p.s. For information, data on the solubility of hydroquinone in water at different temperatures:
5.26 g / 100 ml (5 ° C)
21.21 g / 100 ml (50 ° C)
56.25 g / 100 ml (70 ° C)

DWThomas · Aug 14, 2020

bnxvs said:
I don't understand why everyone suddenly decided that the new HC-110 will not be stored for a long time? From the analysis of its composition, it can be seen that it contains a large amount of potassium sulfite. Comparable to Rodinal and similar concentrates.

I don't know that we have decided anything, as what we don't appear to have (yet) is data. I believe I have observed with the old version that moisture added increases the rate of degradation (seen as discoloration) -- this might suggest a water-based version could lack super long keeping properties. But at this point that is no more than idle speculation. I have been decanting one liter containers of the old stuff into a series of smaller clean, dry, Nalgene bottles filled to the brim, so that only my working container is subject to any possible contamination. That gets me out to three or four years of use unless I have a big surge of photo activity. Will a new version permit that -- dunno yet.

New (2019 version) HC-110 developer not the same?

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency