New (2019 version) HC-110 developer not the same?

Wallendo · Aug 21, 2020

We won't know about the longevity of HC-110 until one of us opens develops a roll of film in 2030.

In the meantime, until longevity is determined, I would hope KA would sell HC-110 in hobbyist sized bottles (250ml or 500ml). I takes a long time for me to use up a liter of HC-110. As it is, I may end up going back to Legacy Pro L110 since it comes in pint bottles.

It may take a really long time to use up my current stock of HC-110 since I am contemplating changing my primary developer to XTOL, for reasons unrelated to this discussion. Even if I switch, I plan to keep bottles of Rodinal and HC-110 for emergency purposes.

pentaxuser · Aug 21, 2020

Wallendo said:
We won't know about the longevity of HC-110 until one of us opens develops a roll of film in 2030.

In the meantime, until longevity is determined, I would hope KA would sell HC-110 in hobbyist sized bottles (250ml or 500ml). I takes a long time for me to use up a liter of HC-110. As it is, I may end up going back to Legacy Pro L110 since it comes in pint bottles..

You make good points here and it begs the question: Does Kodak not sell in bottles of 250/500 because it is sure that the new HC 110 will last long enough in 1L bottles to outlast all but the most lowest volume users or simply because it believes users will not want to pay what might be a justifiably proportionally higher price for 250/500 or it just hasn't thought through the consequences for what may be a lot of users who are medium volume users who will also find themselves with exhausted developer?

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Aug 21, 2020

Most likely it's because, as with the "one size fits all" packaging of their dry chemicals (Xtol, Dektol, D-76, all come in the same size bags even though for different mixed quantities), they're saving a buck by only offering one option. If the concentrate lasts well, it's not a big deal, but we won't even know until it starts going off.

MattKing · Aug 28, 2020

Brady Eklund said:
Any idea what the precipitate forming in the bottom of opened bottles is? The developer is still working as expected as far as I can tell, but obviously some ingredient is falling out of solution. Thankfully I use the solution up quickly enough that I haven't noticed much difference, though I have been very slightly increasing concentration as the developer ages and oxidizes. Next time I need more developer I'll have to look at my other options, this was a shoddily done substitution by Kodak.

There is a new note on Kodak Alaris' website about just this problem:

Update: HC-110 precipitate; August 14, 2020

We’ve had reports of precipitate forming in the bottom of unopened bottles of HC-110 developer
Our investigation has shown that crystals form with freezing. As a result, our supplier is making minor change to make the formulation more robust to cold temperatures. Testing indicates this will resolve the issue.
New / improved batches will begin shipping by the end of August
If you have additional questions, please contact ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com

Donald Qualls · Aug 28, 2020

Yeah, there are a lot of problems with shippers leaving stuff out overnight to freeze in mid to late summer. Either that, or it took them six months to get around to acknowledging the problem.

Unlike film, we can easily make developers ourselves. And we should.

MattKing · Aug 28, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Yeah, there are a lot of problems with shippers leaving stuff out overnight to freeze in mid to late summer. Either that, or it took them six months to get around to acknowledging the problem.

Unlike film, we can easily make developers ourselves. And we should.

That HC-110 could very well have been manufactured in late 2019, after they switched to a US source.

Donald Qualls · Aug 29, 2020

MattKing said:
That HC-110 could very well have been manufactured in late 2019, after they switched to a US source.

And then stored or shipped in a manner that let it freeze?

MattKing · Aug 29, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
And then stored or shipped in a manner that let it freeze?

Sure - I wouldn't expect that climate controlled trucks would have been employed.

Roger Walker · Apr 27, 2022

kevin klein said:
I got the new HC-110 formulation and have found large crystal deposits formed at the bottom after opening and using it, it was just a month ago that I got it and it is making wonder if the reformulation is a scam to make you buy a new bottle or if they (Kodak) just wants to frustrate people into not buying it any more so they can stop making it.

Please don’t say that, I just bought a bottle of the “new” formulated HC110 for a whopping forty-four bucks at Freestyle Photo this afternoon. I also noticed an expiration dated on the bottle stating October 2023. There goes that legendary longevity regarding long shelf life. Hopefully, I’ll be able to use half of the bottle before it’s starts underdeveloping my negatives. This is very unsettling. I’m starting to think of rereturning it back tomorrow since I haven’t opened it yet. I normally use Rodinal ( the old Rodinal I used for over TWELVE YEARS before getting the new stuff and D-76; which I make myself for fresh developer. I just wanted a change of pace, but I think I made a big mistake. I only came on the “net” to find out the dilutions, which I can not find on the bottle. Didn’t the dilutions use be on the back of the label? All I’ve found was stickam. I thick my mind is made up, it’s going back to Freestyle; if they’ll take it back.

MattKing · Apr 27, 2022

FWIW, the old HC-110 had similar use before dates on the bottle. It is a requirement of ISO certification.
It is unlikely that the new formulation will last as far beyond its "best before" date as the old, but its more than predicted life will likely be similar to the Ilford and Legacy versions.
I've had old HC-110 develop crystals and still be usable for a very long time.
Here is the datasheet: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j24-2017.pdf

eurekaiv · Apr 27, 2022

I had a bottle of LegacyPro L110 develop crystals and could see no discernible difference in the negatives from when it was new, to when I finished the bottle, to starting a new bottle but I did find it somewhat disconcerting. I read here somewhere that the crystals tend to develop if the bottle is stored in a "cold" location so I checked and sure enough the cabinet where I kept most of my photo supplies was close to an air conditioning vent. I'm storing my new bottle (and other chems) in a location away from the vent and so far, no crystals after a couple months.

Finn lyle · Apr 27, 2022

I've been slowly using the same bottle of New HC110 that I purchased in June 2020. It "expired" in January and has had crystals in it since it came in the mail from New York. In my experience with it, there has been no change in the contrast or density of my negatives, and no change in the times I use. I did try to redissolve the crystals by allowing the bottle to sit in a hot water bath, and I think that helped. But once again, after this there was no change to contrast, times, or density using the developer. I like it and will continue to buy Kodak. So far the new formulation seems just the same to me functionally.

cjbecker · Apr 27, 2022

The fresh bottle I just got from freestyle has crystals in the bottom. Have not opened it yet as im still using my old bottom of syrup.

Disconnekt · Apr 27, 2022

eurekaiv said:
I had a bottle of LegacyPro L110 develop crystals and could see no discernible difference in the negatives from when it was new, to when I finished the bottle, to starting a new bottle but I did find it somewhat disconcerting. I read here somewhere that the crystals tend to develop if the bottle is stored in a "cold" location so I checked and sure enough the cabinet where I kept most of my photo supplies was close to an air conditioning vent. I'm storing my new bottle (and other chems) in a location away from the vent and so far, no crystals after a couple months.

I had a bottle of LegacyPro too. After opening it, it took ~6 months for it to turn a light caramel color & about a year after opening it for the crystals to start showing up, didn't see any changes to the film. It took me ~1.5 years to finish the bottle.

braxus · Apr 27, 2022

Has anyone tested the anti fog capability of the new HC-110 compared to the old? I tried doing this, but botched my test, so I wasn't able to come to any conclusions on this. I have used 1/3rd of my bottle so far, using it strictly for 4x5 in a Patterson 3 film tank.

Roger Walker · Apr 28, 2022

MattKing said:
FWIW, the old HC-110 had similar use before dates on the bottle. It is a requirement of ISO certification.
It is unlikely that the new formulation will last as far beyond its "best before" date as the old, but its more than predicted life will likely be similar to the Ilford and Legacy versions.
I've had old HC-110 develop crystals and still be usable for a very long time.
Here is the datasheet: https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/j24-2017.pdf

Thanks for the important info, but as I wrote yesterday, I’m not taking any chances at forty-four dollars a pop, not knowing that the developer would potentially not have a long shelf life. I returned the bottle of the new formulation of HC-110 back to Freestyle Photo. It’s nice to be so conveniently close to their warehouse. Bought some B&W film; 35mm and 120 instead for storage in my freezer. Thanks again.

abaugnet · Jun 3, 2022

I purchased 4 bottles of the new HC110 with expiration dates of 05/2023. This is the "new" HC110. The batch number is: 2021/05/1413626.

I have been using HC110 for 30 years. I shoot a lot of 4x5 film and I process 6 sheets at a time using combination tanks, and generally process 6 tanks in a session, 7 minutes apart. I use it out of the bottle at 1:40 and shoot FP4 almost exclusively.

Here is the problem I am having. I get a very very faint image. If I were to guess, I would say the negatives are developing about 10-12%....that's it. I have tried two of the bottles and results are the same. No crystals have formed in these bottles. The bottles are properly sealed with the white plastic seal needing to be broken after unscrewing the black plastic cap. These are the first bottles of the new HC110 I have ever used.

Anyone else having this unfortunate experience?

Nicklop · Jun 3, 2022

Was worried about this too when I got the non syrup.

pentaxuser · Jun 3, 2022

abaugnet said:
I purchased 4 bottles of the new HC110 with expiration dates of 05/2033. This is the "new" HC110. The batch number is: 2021/05/1413626.

Here is the problem I am having. I get a very very faint image. If I were to guess, I would say the negatives are developing about 10-12%....that's it. I have tried two of the bottles and results are the same. No crystals have formed in these bottles. The bottles are properly sealed with the white plastic seal needing to be broken after unscrewing the black plastic cap.

Anyone else having this unfortunate experience?

I had no idea that a fresh bottle of new HC110 had expiry dates as far ahead as over 11 years. That's a lot better than I had expected from reading the posts

Can I ask how many years ahead were the old HC110 expiry dates?

I have never used HC110 but if two new bottles are exhibiting this major fault of only a 10-12% development capability then I'd be tempted to conclude that you have a bad batch of HC110 or something else is affecting your development

Are these 4 bottles the first of the new HC110 you have ever used?

pentaxuser

abaugnet · Jun 4, 2022

pentaxuser said:
I had no idea that a fresh bottle of new HC110 had expiry dates as far ahead as over 11 years. That's a lot better than I had expected from reading the posts

Can I ask how many years ahead were the old HC110 expiry dates?

I have never used HC110 but if two new bottles are exhibiting this major fault of only a 10-12% development capability then I'd be tempted to conclude that you have a bad batch of HC110 or something else is affecting your development

Are these 4 bottles the first of the new HC110 you have ever used?

pentaxuser

Yes, they are the first for me. I'll report back with any more information.

pentaxuser · Jun 4, 2022

Thanks, abaugnet. Can anyone else who has bought new HC110 also confirm that the expiry dates are 11+ years hence and also say if they have used "old " HC110 what the forward expiry dates on those were

pentaxuser

npl · Jun 4, 2022

Bought a bottle somewhere last year, expiration 2023-02.

I think "2033" was a typo that was edited later, see #117

pentaxuser · Jun 5, 2022

npl said:
Bought a bottle somewhere last year, expiration 2023-02.

I think "2033" was a typo that was edited later, see #117

Yes, thanks, you are right I had read the typo and never thought I needed to check again So effectively abagnet bought a bottle that was virtually at its expiry date when purchased.

Nevertheless my question still stands does anyone have information that there is a difference in the new HC110 expiry dates in terms of how long into the future they are and the old HC110

I am interested to find out if indeed the makers have decided that they need to make it clear that the new stuff has a shorter life

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jun 5, 2022

The ISO certification specifications are the drivers for determining the best before dates, and those specifications can change.
And for liquid developers, those specifications are most affected by the nature of the packaging material.

pentaxuser · Jun 5, 2022

I had a look at your old HC110 tech sheet,Matt and thanks for that . Given that it only ever gave 6 months of storage life then while I don't know this for a fact, I'd assume that the new one is unlikely to have different strorage-life times

So my request got dates is now redundant as the info will reveal nothing of value We are back to a time will tell scenario

pentaxuser

New (2019 version) HC-110 developer not the same?

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