New HC-110 Formula

mshchem · Aug 24, 2019

First, has anyone tried the "new" HC 110?
Second, has anyone thought that some changes are related to, Cal Prop 65, RoHS, EU regulations, REACH, etc. etc.
Third, if a customer last purchased a product in 2007, I doubt KA is very concerned about these folks.
Fourth, if the target consumer is now young amateurs who don't care?

markjwyatt · Aug 24, 2019

Grim Tuesday said:
I think you have #2 but the expiration sounds really early. Has anyone else gotten a thin German HC-110? I got one in May but I threw away the bottle after decanting into amber glass bottles and didn't consult the expiration date because everyone knows Hc-110 never expires...

Found this old thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...erified-equal-shelf-life.123157/#post-1629337

Lamar says, On March 27, 2015, "My HC-110 just arrived from Freestyle." He posts a picture. It expires on 2016/04. (1 yr. 1 mo.)

I bought mine from Freestyle March 2019. I expires on 2020-08 (slight difference in date style, but is is a variable date print, so could change easily). (1 yr. 5 mo.)

Basically consistent.

BradS · Aug 24, 2019

mshchem said:
First, has anyone tried the "new" HC 110?
...

good question and excellent (elided) points

I'm grateful that there are excellent, high qulaity, commerical products available.
I'm gonna buy some and try it. I expect it is better than my feeble skills merit.

mshchem · Aug 24, 2019

Film Photography Project is selling a crystal clear version of HC-110 called FP-110.

I panic bought XTOL when I heard Tetenal was in trouble, glad I did now. .

mshchem · Aug 24, 2019

BradS said:
good question and excellent (elided) points

I'm grateful that there are excellent, high qulaity, commerical products available.
I'm gonna buy some and try it. I expect it is better than my feeble skills merit.

Someone is going have to help me out on this "elided" thing. I need remedial training in nearly everything.

pentaxuser · Aug 25, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
I think that there is a typo here. More viscous = older version and less viscous = newer version. I hesitate to comment on keeping.

PE

PE thanks for that You are quite right I was using viscosity wrongly in my statement. I should have said that the "new" HC 110 is of lower viscosity and therefore = more water = shorter life. Sorry if I confused other readers as well

pentaxuser

Photo Engineer · Aug 25, 2019

Well, there is no evidence as of yet on the keeping either way.

PE

pentaxuser · Aug 25, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
Well, there is no evidence as of yet on the keeping either way.

PE

One would presume that Kodak has some knowledge on this. If so how do we get it, I wonder?

pentaxuser

mgb74 · Aug 25, 2019

pentaxuser said:
One would presume that Kodak has some knowledge on this. If so how do we get it, I wonder?

pentaxuser

Easy Peasy:

Become a chemist or chemical engineer specializing in photo chemicals.
Get hired by Kodak and assigned to their photo chemical team.
Violate the NDA you'll almost certainly be required to sign.

Seriously, I very, very, very much doubt that Kodak is going to comment beyond assurances that it will last as long as the expiration date. To my knowledge (which is, of course, incomplete), they've never even acknowledged the legendary longevity of "old old" HC-110. With respect to "new" HC-110, this is a classic case of "those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know".

pentaxuser · Aug 25, 2019

mgb74 said:
Seriously, I very, very, very much doubt that Kodak is going to comment beyond assurances that it will last as long as the expiration date. To my knowledge (which is, of course, incomplete), they've never even acknowledged the legendary longevity of "old old" HC-110. With respect to "new" HC-110, this is a classic case of "those who know don't talk and those who talk don't know".

I strongly suspect you are right and thus in terms of treating this as a fact finding thread we will fail

pentaxuser

cmacd123 · Aug 25, 2019

just to add confusion, the NEW HC-110 is now in stock at B&H, FOR STORE PICKUP only. (so I know that instead of ordering one bottle of the German stuff last week, I probably should have gone for a two year supply)

Alan Johnson · Aug 26, 2019

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/homebrew-xtol.19391/
See post 25. Adding water to PC-TEA reduces its shelf life if exposed to air in a part full container.

Rudeofus · Aug 26, 2019

Water obviously does not hurt shelf life of Rodinal. Agree with PE here, most statements about new HC-110 shelf life are pure speculation right now.

I'd hate to be anywhere near a facility, which pumps HBr and SO2 gas into TEA or DEA. The red tape about environmental and safety concerns must be tremendous. This is 2019 and the quantities of HC-110 actually sold may raise the cost of making it the old way towards unprofitable, and right now Tetenal (or whoever makes the new stuff) can't afford unprofitable products. If the options are 1. same product at three times the cost, 2. similar product at same cost but with questionable shelf life and 3. discontinuation, then option 2. sounds like the way to go.

If 5 years of shelf life are an issue for you, then you may not be such a high volume customer to begin with, and definitely not one who can keep Tetenal et al. afloat.

Alan Johnson · Aug 26, 2019

https://shop.new-tetenal.de/produkt-kategorie/entwickler/?lang=de
New Tetenal don't seem to list old HC110 type film developer, at least so far.

markjwyatt · Aug 26, 2019

Rudeofus said:
....

I'd hate to be anywhere near a facility, which pumps HBr and SO2 gas into TEA or DEA. The red tape about environmental and safety concerns must be tremendous. This is 2019 and the quantities of HC-110 actually sold may raise the cost of making it the old way towards unprofitable, and right now Tetenal (or whoever makes the new stuff) can't afford unprofitable products. If the options are 1. same product at three times the cost, 2. similar product at same cost but with questionable shelf life and 3. discontinuation, then option 2. sounds like the way to go.

If 5 years of shelf life are an issue for you, then you may not be such a high volume customer to begin with, and definitely not one who can keep Tetenal et al. afloat.

It sounds like it is safety/environmental/processing-costs that are driving this.

It looks like HC110 is being given about a 1-2 year "official" shelf life by Kodak/Tetenal.

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2019

Rudi has certainly put his finger on the main problem as it exists today!

PE

Kino · Aug 26, 2019

Time to start a "HC-110" buyer's club! Share a bottle with a friend...

markjwyatt · Aug 26, 2019

Kino said:
Time to start a "HC-110" buyer's club! Share a bottle with a friend...

Take a swig, pass it along....

Photo Engineer · Aug 26, 2019

No backwashing though. It introduces water!

markjwyatt · Aug 26, 2019

Photo Engineer said:
No backwashing though. It introduces water!

You can put it in a glass, but no ice... (maybe dry ice)

visual impact · Aug 27, 2019

billtroop said:
This is a radical reformulation. The fingerprint technology of HC-110 -- the use of a DEA-sulfur addition product (originally patented by Kodak Harrow) to provide accelerator and sulfite in a highly stable, water-free syrup, has been dispensed with. As a result, I doubt that stability -- which was a key feature of HC-110 -- will be anywhere near as high. I also cannot believe that results will be the same. The DEA-sulfur complex is a little hard to make, but Ilford and Tetenal have both managed to do it. I can't think why this formula would be changed so radically. For a less major change, see the MSDS of 02-2019, where the complex is made with methylethanolamine instead of DEA. More detail in FDC 2nd edition, which should be out by the end of the year. This isn't any longer HC-110 and I suggest it should be referred to as Neo-HC-110 or HC-110 2019 to distinguish it from the previously known product. The pyrocatechin is an interesting constant. It has been suggested to me that the reason for it may be related to a certain process for manufacturing HQ.I suspect it is there for other reasons.

Well I can confirm what you say above. I still have 2 dozen bottles of the old and recently tried the new. As I process color separations with it for use in the dye transfer and carbon printing processes any variations in the formula could require re-calibrating. Fortunately it doesn't seem to be the case. Any variations I can chase in the tray. However the syrup discolors in the bottle very quickly. I guess one can be thankful for small mercies.

Rolfe Tessem · Aug 27, 2019

I wonder if this company could be the new manufacturer. They make the Unicolor chemistry and possibly the Legacy Pro stuff.

https://www.photosys.com/photographic-chemistry

Rolfe

Kino · Aug 27, 2019

markjwyatt said:
You can put it in a glass, but no ice... (maybe dry ice)

"HC-100, straight, no chaser..."

markjwyatt · Aug 27, 2019

Rolfe Tessem said:
I wonder if this company could be the new manufacturer. They make the Unicolor chemistry and possibly the Legacy Pro stuff.

https://www.photosys.com/photographic-chemistry

Rolfe

Dexter, MI. They make some nice beers in Dexter, including some open vat Belgian style sour ales.

mshchem · Aug 27, 2019

Oh No, not Unicolor. I remember when Unicolor came on the scene, with their cavalier attitude to temperature control. I was a member of the Church of Eastman Kodak, I was (still am) a fanatic follower of the orthodoxy, of the Men from Rochester. The company that George Eastman founded may have collapsed, but I still have the "religion"

If this gets to weird it's back to making my own. I've got all the reference books from Kodak. The formulas and methods established by the 30's and 40's are IMHO still the gold standard. I have enough XTOL in stock that it should hold me for quite a while. I can always make D76 for film and D72 for printing.

New HC-110 Formula

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