New To 4x5 Photography - Spotmeter Suggestions

grahamp · Wednesday at 5:54 PM

My main spot meter is a Pentax V with the old analogue dial. I also have an old original Soligor Spot Sensor that needs mr9 adapters to use silver oxide batteries.

my backup is an old Gossen Lunar Pro for reflected and incident light.

while I like a spot meter, I would not want to be without an incident option.

As long as you know how to use your meter, and are aware of the limitations, it should not make much difference in results. Ease of use, maybe.

GregY · Wednesday at 6:03 PM

MattKing said:
How often are you unable to walk closer to your subject when you are taking a reading?

Often. Buy the Pentax Spotmeter once.....It's a tool you won't regret having

Lachlan Young · Wednesday at 6:32 PM

Lam-Bartll said:
The Zone System is something I'd really like to get into

Your time will be better spent learning basic sensitometry rather than Adams' et al's overcomplicated bowdlerisation of it. You don't need a spotmeter - in fact, they make things harder for most people. With a little common sense, an incident meter is at least as accurate and allows for rapid and precise scene contrast determination.

And whatever you end up doing, don't stick a zone scale on a Pentax digital spot meter - the I.R.E. scale is vastly more useful for shadow and highlight keying.

Vieri Bottazzini · Wednesday at 6:49 PM

Much has been written about the Zone System, and ZS versus Sensitometry is one of those age old debates / religious wars. By the way, Sensitometry is quite complex itself, I wouldn't consider it less complicated than the Zone System.

To complicate things further, I believe our original poster didn't offer information about his end use for the negatives (which we also don't know are in B&W or colour, and in that case negs or slides).

If B&W and printed in a wet darkroom, I would go for the Zone System or sensitometry, and the ZS helps with pre-visualising where to place values in a more intuitive way than sensitometry, IMHO.

If B&W and scanning, I would just make sure to get a negative with no blocked shadows and no blown highlights, and fix the rest on the computer - a simple approach to that would be spot metering the darkest and brightest areas of the image, put the darkest 2-3 EV under the metered value for it, see where that take the highlights and adjust development accordingly.

Easy enough, and no need for all the theory if one is not interested in learning it. Which I would recommend one does anyway, to then see how to adapt it to one's shooting style.

Best regards,

Vieri

Sirius Glass · Wednesday at 6:52 PM

Lam-Bartll said:
Did you find the 5-degree spot too large?

And ohhh it looks like I'm being pointed towards getting a Pentax Digital Spotmeter! Welp my bank account might be unhappy but my camera bag will I'm sure!

5 degrees is too large for using the Zone System.

I prefer the Pentax Digital Spot Meter over the Pentax [Analog] Spot Meter. The digital especially with the Zone sticker [available on the internet] is easier to use.

DREW WILEY · Wednesday at 8:04 PM

Lachlan - AA ZS too complicated? Maybe to someone with no dkrm background at all. But it's basics boil down to just a few centipede segment like variables - too segmented and simplified in fact to be an ideal answer, but respectable as a learning tool at least. Spot meters are applicable to far more than that. More of them have probably been prized in Hollywood shoots than all our LF film or Zonie Freak usage put together; and the fact they have IRE scales shows they were designed for TV production work too. Versatile. They just don't read flash; but some of us don't care about that at all. If you do, the Minolta Spotmeter F would be a better choice.

I just learned that one of my Grand-nephews has just moved back home near Yosemite, and has already made a little incidental money with shots there. His mother's income comes from private tour guiding of tourists (dad a lawyer, more interested in fishing the river on time off or hiking than photography). I might give him my very first Pentax Spotmeter, now "retired" in a drawer, but still dead-on accurate after 45 years of use, despite now being held together with electrical tape.

MattKing · Wednesday at 8:13 PM

GregY said:
Often. Buy the Pentax Spotmeter once.....It's a tool you won't regret having
View attachment 396581

Greg's example is a perfect one of a photographer whose favorite types of photography make a spot meter highly advantageous.
If you look at my Photrio Gallery photos, you will see a much lower preponderance of images where employing a spot meter was almost necessary.
If your specialty is portraits, you would almost never be unable to take a reading from close up.
So in other words, decide on how important a spot meter is to you based on what you might need it for.
I have one of the older Pentax analog ones which I don't use very often.

John Wiegerink · Wednesday at 8:39 PM

Sirius Glass said:
5 degrees is too large for using the Zone System.

I prefer the Pentax Digital Spot Meter over the Pentax [Analog] Spot Meter. The digital especially with the Zone sticker [available on the internet] is easier to use.

7.5 degree, 5 degree, 10 degree, 1 degree or no degree can all be used for the Zone System. All depends on how close you can get to your shadow area you want detail in or if you can measure off a substitute area. I learned the Zone System using my in camera bottom weighted metering and it worked just fine. So it can be done, but a spot meter with a narrow angle of view just makes it easier.

gbroadbridge · Wednesday at 8:43 PM

I'm gonna buck the trend and suggest that unless you are right into the Zone system and shooting transparencies you probably don't need a spot meter.

I've taken plenty of fine exposures using just an incident meter and adjusting the exposure from there mentally based upon observation of the subject.

BrianShaw · Wednesday at 8:57 PM

gbroadbridge said:
I'm gonna buck the trend and suggest that unless you are right into the Zone system and shooting transparencies you probably don't need a spot meter.

I've taken plenty of fine exposures using just an incident meter and adjusting the exposure from there mentally based upon observation of the subject.

Ditto. Both incident and general coverage reflected metering works for me more often than not. I’d estimate using spot meter at about 5% or less. But whatever equipment one is comfortable with and provides the desired result…

Paul Howell · Wednesday at 9:15 PM

John Wiegerink said:
7.5 degree, 5 degree, 10 degree, 1 degree or no degree can all be used for the Zone System. All depends on how close you can get to your shadow area you want detail in or if you can measure off a substitute area. I learned the Zone System using my in camera bottom weighted metering and it worked just fine. So it can be done, but a spot meter with a narrow angle of view just makes it easier.

I agree, when I took Minor White's class in 1967 no one in my class had a spot-meter, AA and MW had been using a scientific 1% meter that measures in foot candles. I used a Weston Master IV. Some put tubes on their Weston to narrow the angle down to about what 30% or so. By the 70s with Spot meters and densitomers precision certainly increased, by that time the ZS had been around for over 30 years.

Lam-Bartll · Wednesday at 9:36 PM

Vieri Bottazzini said:
To complicate things further, I believe our original poster didn't offer information about his end use for the negatives (which we also don't know are in B&W or colour, and in that case negs or slides).

If B&W and printed in a wet darkroom, I would go for the Zone System or sensitometry, and the ZS helps with pre-visualising where to place values in a more intuitive way than sensitometry, IMHO.

Apologies I should've brought that up (new to this forum and just excited to post), I work with B&W film exclusively and I print in a wet darkroom.

Lam-Bartll · Wednesday at 9:39 PM

Lachlan Young said:
Your time will be better spent learning basic sensitometry rather than Adams' et al's overcomplicated bowdlerisation of it.

Thanks for the advice! Do you have any suggestions for good resources for learning sensotometry?

I did not study photography in college so this is more of a passion than something I learned in a rigorous environment.

MattKing · Wednesday at 9:41 PM

Lam-Bartll said:
Apologies I should've brought that up (new to this forum and just excited to post), I work with B&W film exclusively and I print in a wet darkroom.

No apology necessary! It is always helpful though to have a sense of the context in which your questions are asked.

Kino · Wednesday at 9:44 PM

Lam-Bartll said:
Thanks for the advice! Do you have any suggestions for good resources for learning sensotometry?

You can start here:

https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Basic-Photographic-Sensitometry-Workbook.pdf

Lam-Bartll · Wednesday at 9:48 PM

grahamp said:
As long as you know how to use your meter, and are aware of the limitations, it should not make much difference in results. Ease of use, maybe.

Luckily I learned photography from my father and I basically grew up using my sekonic studio deluxe so I am extremely comfortable with it and I've produced some work I'm very happy with. It's basically the only meter I've ever worked with and I could probably use it in my sleep haha.

However in some ways I feel like my interest in spot meters is sort of a "grass is greener on the other side"/gear acquisition disorder kind of thing. I feel like I hear people associate large format photography with spot meters I almost thought they were a requirement or something.

Also I'm really happy for this forum and the discussion I've seen so far, it's been super enlightening about the different approaches to metering (sensotometry/ZS, incident vs spot, etc) and I'm really happy to have had the chance to read through everyone's replies.

Alan Edward Klein · Wednesday at 10:27 PM

Lachlan Young said:
Your time will be better spent learning basic sensitometry rather than Adams' et al's overcomplicated bowdlerisation of it. You don't need a spotmeter - in fact, they make things harder for most people. With a little common sense, an incident meter is at least as accurate and allows for rapid and precise scene contrast determination.

And whatever you end up doing, don't stick a zone scale on a Pentax digital spot meter - the I.R.E. scale is vastly more useful for shadow and highlight keying.

What's I.R.E. scale?

Alan9940 · Wednesday at 11:58 PM

Lam-Bartll said:
Interesting, I actually haven't come across this meter. The size would be pretty nice for long hikes.

Have you had the chance to use it yourself?

I don't use it as much as my Pentax Digital Spot, but I do use it fairly regularly. Once you get the hang of getting accurate readings, it's actually quite nice IMO and certainly worth the cost of entry

Vieri Bottazzini · Thursday at 4:45 AM

Lam-Bartll said:
Apologies I should've brought that up (new to this forum and just excited to post), I work with B&W film exclusively and I print in a wet darkroom.

No apologies needed, and thanks for the info, that helps a lot!

See my previous message - for B&W only and wet printing, I would definitely recommend getting a spot meter. Maybe a little more costly now, but absolutely worth it.

About incident meters, they might work depending on your subject, but they will be very limiting. Let me offer you an example. I am currently at the tail end of my spring traveling and yesterday I was photographing a sea arch on the northern coast of Ireland, standing on a cliff about 25 m above sea level, pointing my camera towards a dark basaltic arch surrounded by red sandstone, under an overcast sky with a thin layers of sort of shapeless clouds with the su in front of me sort of visible through the clouds (but not projecting any harsh light). The arch was under me and in a sort of "bowl" filled with crashing waves and white foam.

I pointed my Pentax towards the scene, scanned it to get a reading of the darkest and brightest areas, made my decision about exposure and development and I was good to go. I am pretty sure my shadows won't be blocked and my sky / foam won't be burned.

Given the structure of the location, it would have been extremely hard to use an incident meter to the same effect.

Of course, if you shoot tree barks in a forest where walking to the tree is easy, then an incident meter is perfect; or, if you shoot a scene at a distance where the light is simpler and more uniform than what I got yesterday, incident would do.

I have been doing this professionally for 15 years now, and one thing I learned is that with pretty much anything photographic you'll find people for whom this or that solution work fantastically well, no question about it. When it comes to meters, it's mostly down to the kind of subject matter and light you intend to work on, and depending on that it is possible an incident meter would work fine for you. But, an incident meter is inherently limited, whereas a spot meter will work perfectly for any subject and under any light.

One last point - when in doubt and when new to things, I always start by looking at the masters for reference, assuming they must have known a thing or two In this case, if you do, you'll find that all the masters of film era landscape pretty much used spot meters, even when they had incident meters available.

Hope this helps, best regards

Vieri

BrianShaw · Thursday at 7:45 AM

It may be worth noting that landscape photography was successfully accomplished prior to the advent of the Zone System and spot meters.

There are many ways to the same end.

retina_restoration · Thursday at 8:45 AM

I have the Reveni Labs spot meter and I think it’s a brilliant tool. It works exceptionally well, is easy to use and 100% reliable/accurate. I recommend it over the older spot meters, or modern, very expensive ones.

John Wiegerink · Thursday at 9:48 AM

Paul Howell said:
I agree, when I took Minor White's class in 1967 no one in my class had a spot-meter, AA and MW had been using a scientific 1% meter that measures in foot candles. I used a Weston Master IV. Some put tubes on their Weston to narrow the angle down to about what 30% or so. By the 70s with Spot meters and densitomers precision certainly increased, by that time the ZS had been around for over 30 years.

Exactly! When I took Photography 101 (zone system) years ago in college the only spot meter in the whole class was owned by the instructor.

GregY · Thursday at 10:02 AM

The discussion is classic. The OP asked about options for spotmeters. So you get input from those who have and use them...to the you don't need one...get a ___________.....we never had them in the '70s. There was a time when there were no seatbelts or vaccines either.
.....BTW i do also own an incident meter .
Having trouble finding my keys or glasses I'm pretty sure i'd lose one or several Raveni spot meters.
As far as a $350 Pentax digital spot meter being "expensive" what term do you use for the price of a box of Kodak TMY-2 400 or 50 sheets of 16x20" enlarging paper?... asking for a friend.

Donald Qualls · Thursday at 10:04 AM

Paul Howell said:
AA and MW had been using a scientific 1% meter that measures in foot candles.

Aaaah. This answers something I've wondered about for years. In his account of the making of the negative for "Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico" Ansel said that he couldn't find his light meter, and then remembered the near-constant illumination of the Moon's near-full face in foot-candles, and did the conversion to exposure in his head (which resulted in greatly underexposing the townscape part of the negative, resulting in bleach-redevelop in water bath attempting to bring up that portion without blocking up the Moon -- and still a challenging negative to print).

Alan9940 · Thursday at 10:11 AM

BrianShaw said:
It may be worth noting that landscape photography was successfully accomplished prior to the advent of the Zone System and spot meters.

There are many ways to the same end.

Very true! But, I used to pay $50 for a 50-sheet box of 8x10 Tri-X back in 1980. With the prices of LF sheet film nowadays, especially color, I for one wouldn't like to leave my exposure determination to chance or my error.

New To 4x5 Photography - Spotmeter Suggestions

grahamp

GregY

Lachlan Young

Vieri Bottazzini

Sirius Glass

DREW WILEY

MattKing

Moderator

John Wiegerink

gbroadbridge

BrianShaw

Paul Howell

Lam-Bartll

Lam-Bartll

MattKing

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Kino

Lam-Bartll

Alan Edward Klein

Alan9940

Vieri Bottazzini

BrianShaw

retina_restoration

John Wiegerink

GregY

Donald Qualls

Alan9940

New To 4x5 Photography - Spotmeter Suggestions

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