Owners of Jobo CPA/CPP: is it worth it for B/W?

[martinobanana]

Hi,
I know that it's very hard question because for everybody it means something different. But I'm now setting up a darkroom and considering using Jobo CPP2 for both film and prints.
I've shot color before but the inconsistencies and mess from the lab made me switch to black and white, and I expect I won't return to color anytime soon. I'm mainly considering the CPP because:

• Consistent development of B/W film (I shoot hp5).
  • I now do hand agitation and I'm more or less satisfied (but I understand it would be a relief is the agitation is done automatically)
  • Should I be concerned about inconsistent development / strikes on the negative when using jobo?
• Usage of chemicals (environmental reasons)
• Less fumes from the chemicals in the processor compared to 40x50cm trays
  • The darkroom has high ceiling but impossible to ventilate during the session.
• Clean "dry" process for developing the prints (better for skin etc., I hate working in gloves).
• Size compared to 3x 40x50cm trays

So I wonder if I should pull the trigger and buy, or try the NOVA tank or just continue working with trays. Anybody who did the same switch and regrets it or anybody who works solely with jobo and loves it?

Also, I'm aware of FB papers "issue" in jobo drums, I used to do both FB and RC and I wouldn't like to go back just to RC. So if I face issues with fb papers and will develop them in trays in the end, I might also just develop everything in the trays..

Any thoughts? (I would ask somebody local but don't know anybody with the processor who's working with B/W).

Thanks.

 

[Alan9940]

I've had my CPP-2 since the mid-90's and develop sheet film (4x5 and 8x10) in Expert Drums. I don't shoot much roll film but, when I do it goes into 25xx tanks on 2502 reels. Before getting the Jobo, I developed sheet film in trays for about 15 years and thought I was satisfied with the results. After getting the Jobo, I did what I'd call a "torture test." I exposed two sheets to a very evenly lit surface placing the tone on Zone VI (I shoot only B&W). One was developed in trays as I had been doing for years, the other in an Expert Drum on the CPP-2. Comparing the two I finally realized what truly even development looked like in the Jobo neg. I retired the trays and have never looked back.

I can't speak to doing paper on the Jobo, since I don't work that way. FWIW, I've seen comments around the forums for years that the Expert Drums scratch the back (base side) of their film, but I've personally never seen this. It may be something you want to research a bit, if you're serious about a Jobo.

 

[koraks]

For film, it's a bit of a convenience thing, I think. I generally don't bother hauling out the Jobo.
For prints, I don't see much of a benefit to it to be honest. Print developer can be reused and replenished, so it's quite economical/ecological. If the acetic acid bothers you, use a citric acid odorless stop bath and an odorless fixer instead. There's otherwise not much going on in terms of fumes.

Welcome to Photrio btw!

 

[Kino]

If you consistently produce work on a regular basis, it could be a good match for you.

However, only sporadic, inconsistent ability or need to process might make it unreasonably expensive and labor intensive.

There are no real clear-cut answers; it depends on your budget and throughput volumes.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My Jobo CPP2 processor is set up ready to use and I have used it for both color and black & white film. I use replenished XTOL in the Jobo processor. The use of the Jobo processor provides a consistency that I cannot get with small tank development.

 

[mshchem]

I've used Expert drums for 8x10 fiber prints on CPP2/CPP3. I'm sure there's better more cost effective ways, like Nova or print baskets in deep tanks. Jobo machines are fun, but unless you are developing a crap load of color film they are hard to justify financially.

 

[Sirius Glass]

My Jobo CPP2 processor is set up ready to use and I have used it for both color and black & white film. I use replenished XTOL in the Jobo processor. The use of the Jobo processor provides a consistency that I cannot get with small tank development.

I use 3010 Expert Drum for 4"x5" sheet film.

 

[gary mulder]

With medium format it’s hard to get an even development with a rotating drum. Large format with a expert drum is a whole different story.

 

[Don_ih]

(I shoot hp5)

I'd advise against continuous agitation for 35mm HP5. Sheet film, it's fine. I find 35mm HP5 gets a bit too grainy in the jobo so I only agitate it by hand.

 

[martinobanana]

Hello Everybody,
Thanks a lot for answers!

• I guess I should have specified that I shoot mainly medium format, sometimes 35mm. No plans for large format. Wrt. last comment from Don_ih, I shoot mainly ISO800 and 1600 so the grain is already quite pronounced and I don't need to get it more grainy.
• Jobo would be permanently on the desk and ready to start (there's hot water faucet as well so no problems with long preheating)

From what I see, I'm more inclined to tray development for the prints and maybe to use the extra money for FB prints wash instead. It sounds like a better way, instead of having CPP which potential I mostly won't use... I will research odor-less stop & fix bath to cover that part.

 

[koraks]

I guess I should have specified that I shoot mainly medium format, sometimes 35mm. No plans for large format.

OK, I'm with @gary mulder here. 120 is a tricky format to get perfectly even development in, and I personally get the best results when doing it manually with inversion agitation. That works every time, all the time. With the Jobo, I find I need to introduce a pre-wash step and then hope for the best.

I have a CPE2, but it's been quite some time since I hauled it out of storage. Even for color I don't use it much anymore. I loathe heating up something like 25 liters of water only to dump the energy down the drain afterwards. A small tank with a sous vide stick seems a little more efficient, and it takes up less space, too. That's for color - for B&W, just any old manual inversion tank does just fine IMO.

 

[mshchem]

I use one of these for black and white roll films.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1799561-REG/jobo_4044t_silverbase_compact_rotary_film.html

 

[Alan9940]

Interesting... Unlike @gary mulder and @koraks, I've found the exact opposite with 120 roll film--perfectly even development on the CPP-2 with 25xx and 2502 reels...somewhat of a crap-shoot with hand tanks and manual inversion. Could be I'm just not coordinated enough to do smooth, even manual inversions.

 

[bdial]

For B&W prints it is convenient to see how the development progresses, which isn’t possible using a drum.
I’ve had no problems with fiber paper in a Nova. Single-weight paper might be an issue, but there are very few single-weight papers available anymore.
So if you want to minimize chemistry for printing, the Nova processors work well.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Interesting... Unlike @gary mulder and @koraks, I've found the exact opposite with 120 roll film--perfectly even development on the CPP-2 with 25xx and 2502 reels...somewhat of a crap-shoot with hand tanks and manual inversion. Could be I'm just not coordinated enough to do smooth, even manual inversions.

I agree and as I pointed out before with the Jobo processor the development is much more consistent due to the constant agitation and even pouring in and pouring out of chemicals. I do not use the water bath for black & white processing.

 

[Pioneer]

I use my Jobo for color almost all of the time. I rarely use it for black and white. I do use rotation for black & white once in awhile but since I don't need temp control I don't put the drum in the water. I just rotate with a motorized Unicolor Uniroller or manually with a set of plastic rollers. If I am only doing a single roll I mostly use inversion.

 

[Don_ih]

I've found the exact opposite with 120 roll film--perfectly even development on the CPP-2 with 25xx and 2502

It might be the difference between the 1500 and 2500 diameter reels. I don't have any 135/120 reels for my 2500 tanks, so I don't know. I never had any problem with consistent and even development of 120 in the 1500 tanks, though. I just find the tonality of the film, after constant agitation, is a bit uglier than with hand-inversion agitation.

 

[nbagno]

http://migration.jobo-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/images_archive_JQ3.pdf

 

[mshchem]

I've never had a problem with Jobo or Paterson or Nikor or deep tanks. No foaming, air bubbles etc. 99.9% of my film processing has been using Kodak chemistry Microdol-X the HC-110 and for the last 30 years XTOL. Most of what I shoot continues to be Kodak film, primarily TMY-2. Rodinal works well with Jobo. FWIW YMMV

 

[Kilgallb]

I use my Jobo tank and reel for B&W and roll it manually on this roller gizmo I have. For colour I use the CPP-2 and the water bath.

I think the tank and reel is what gives me the even development, that plus lots of chemical.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I've found the exact opposite with 120 roll film--perfectly even development on the CPP-2 with 25xx and 2502 reels...somewhat of a crap-shoot with hand tanks and manual inversion. Could be I'm just not coordinated enough to do smooth, even manual inversions.

Usually the problems relate to insufficient agitation (and possibly poor choices of developers that suffer significant aerial oxidation and/ or are poorly designed with regard to development inhibition effects and the causes thereof). Many claims of uneven development can often be solved with sufficient volumes of mainstream developers and more (early) agitation.

 

[MattKing]

I don't use a JOBO. I use Paterson Super System IV tanks and a Beseler continuous reversing rotary agitator, but only for the first 30 seconds of development, plus all the steps of development after developer, ending with a wash off of the agitator.
I was happy with the results of using this with continuous rotary agitation for all of the development stage as well, except it caused problems with one particular mode of use that I use a lot - two rolls of 120 on the same reel - so I settled on inversion agitation instead for all but the first 30 seconds of development.
I always work with 1 litre of replenishable developer in my 1 litre tanks. That makes it easier to maintain consistency in a replenishment regime. 600 ml of all the rest of the solutions works fine.
The advantage of something like a JOBO is that it will permit higher volumes and supports consistency and repeatability. If you have lots of film to develop, it may very well cut down on time.
Are those advantages worth it for you?

 

[gary mulder]

Usually the problems relate to insufficient agitation (and possibly poor choices of developers that suffer significant aerial oxidation and/ or are poorly designed with regard to development inhibition effects and the causes thereof). Many claims of uneven development can often be solved with sufficient volumes of mainstream developers and more (early) agitation.

It's pure physics, fluid dynamics and a uneven boundary layer thickness.

 

[hiroko]

Few points with Jobo that you need to be aware.
1. When using print drums with Jobo , you need to clean it every round the tank and lid as to avoid cross contamination from previous round.
2. When using Jobo for film wash not all developer suitable with rotation due to oxidisation( rodinal , pyro)
3. Personal exp with HP5 i use stand development with pyro and switch to jobo for stop bath and fixing and final wash due to Jobo for convenients. (Jobo is recommending 75rpm for BW wash I find it too fast and caused too many noise in highlight area.)
4. No doubt Jobo tank is one of the systems that save chemicals and cost for long run.

 

[koraks]

Jobo is recommending 75rpm for BW wash I find it too fast and caused too many noise in highlight area

There's no reason why a difference in wash procedure would cause 'noise' (grain? artifacts?) on film. My guess is that you're dealing with another factor here. The wash as such as no effect on image quality, except with the extreme case of skipping the wash altogether, which will cause fixer remnants to crystallize out on the surface.

As to 'pyro' & rotation: not all pyro is unsuited for rotation development. E.g. pyrocat HD works just fine and is specifically formulated to (also) work well with rotary processing.