I had an hour today so I tested a clip of expired Tri-X that has been in the freezer (Arista Premium 400). Looks like time is going to be about the same as XTOL, actually, but will wait until it's dry and I can check density and also scan it to post. I tested on film leader first, to get a sense of Dmax and adjusted upward to the full 7 mins before developing.
I use Ilford Multigrade. I mix up what I need for a session and throw it out when I am done. I get a new bottle when I run out. If it goes bad before I finish a bottle, I throw it out and get a new bottle. Not the least expensive way to go, but in the grand scheme of things, the cost is negligible, and I always have fresh chemicals.
Yes, developing agents last a long time in propylene glycol, as Gainer found. I have had a batch of PC-Glycol last 3 years in a partially filled bottle with some small exposure all that time to ultraviolet as well. It works well! I like the freezer idea you used with Mocon and will be doing that from now on.
How does this relate to the topic under discussion of "paper developers w long shelf life" ?
It verifies that developers dissolved in propylene glycol last a long time, especially when stored cool, and thus that a paper developer mixed and stored that way will also be long-lasting.
Albada, which paper developer have you mixed that way? I typically use LPD or Formulary Ansco 130. Are you suggesting they be mixed w polypropylene glycol? Or have I missed something here?
* As aside, I also keep some Ilford Multigrade developer on hand as it's the only paper developer locally available. I buy the 5 litre container and even after it darkens with age, I've never had it go bad.
Albada, which paper developer have you mixed that way? I typically use LPD or Formulary Ansco 130. Are you suggesting they be mixed w polypropylene glycol? Or have I missed something here?
* As aside, I also keep some Ilford Multigrade developer on hand as it's the only paper developer locally available. I buy the 5 litre container and even after it darkens with age, I've never had it go bad.
I ran an experiment on this with dektol, 1 liter in a tray covered with plastic wrap between sessions. The experiment went for four sessions over two weeks, end of each session printed a wedge at the same fstop and intensity. Because I was basically doing this anyway, just not the wedge. Well it was a waste of time. I saw no difference on day 1 vs. day 13 or 14. What I learned is, dektol developer is pretty hard to wear out. This was a 1+2 mix.
i have LPD in powder & some liquid jugs as well. It seems like two issues. I thought the OP was talking about leaving mixed developer in trays. I've never had paper developers (LPD, Neutol, Ansco 130, or Ilford Multigrade) go bad. With the cost of paper I don't care to reuse, replenish and worry about exhausted or contaminated developer. So at the risk of looking at it simplistically, it seems to be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.None yet. I was stating that film developers can be stored in glycol, so it should work for paper developers too.
As @relistan pointed out above, I want to try this with ID-62, but have not done so yet.
Usually, only some chemicals in a developer will dissolve in glycol, forcing us to keep the developer in *two* stock solutions: One water-based, and the other glycol-based. This approach only works for folks mixing chemicals from scratch. LPD and 130 come pre-mixed, so they cannot be dissolved in glycol.
None yet. I was stating that film developers can be stored in glycol, so it should work for paper developers too.
As @relistan pointed out above, I want to try this with ID-62, but have not done so yet.
Usually, only some chemicals in a developer will dissolve in glycol, forcing us to keep the developer in *two* stock solutions: One water-based, and the other glycol-based. This approach only works for folks mixing chemicals from scratch. LPD and 130 come pre-mixed, so they cannot be dissolved in glycol.
It's also worth noting that ID-62 and ID-78 which use Phenidone, have a longer shelf life once opened than their commercial equivalents PQ Universal & Harman Warmtone, which use Dimezone.
That's strange! I've read that Phenidone is subject to hydrolysis, making its storage life shorter than Dimezone. Do you know why the opposite would be true?
That's strange! I've read that Phenidone is subject to hydrolysis, making its storage life shorter than Dimezone. Do you know why the opposite would be true?
None yet. I was stating that film developers can be stored in glycol, so it should work for paper developers too.
As @relistan pointed out above, I want to try this with ID-62, but have not done so yet.
Usually, only some chemicals in a developer will dissolve in glycol, forcing us to keep the developer in *two* stock solutions: One water-based, and the other glycol-based. This approach only works for folks mixing chemicals from scratch. LPD and 130 come pre-mixed, so they cannot be dissolved in glycol.
and the Phenidone as a 1% mixture in Isopropyl Alcohol (and measure this with a syringe), which I think is the less stable part in this flow.
I recently came across this test:
"Because of the inherent difficulty of weighing small quantities of phenidone, I had high hopes for the stock solution mixed at the initial interval, and used to measure phenidone in making PC developer at each testing interval. But the activity of this stock solution was significantly poorer than the keeping qualities of PC, PX, or Xtol developer themselves. I wouldn't recommend using it."
https://healthprofessions.udmercy.edu/academics/na/agm/phenvitc.htm
I thought having read somewhere about an other way of diluting Phenidone at a 1% quantity in an other medium than Isopropyl Alcohol and having a better keeping quality.
But I can't recall wat was that compound, it could have been Glycol or Glycerol, but I don't know...
Hopefully it works better in either IPA or propylene glycol.
Propylene glycol, it does a very good job at preserving phenidone.
Mark,Yes! In the 14 years that I've participated in this forum, you are the first to point out the meaning of my name.
Regarding the OP's desire for a "paper developer with long shelf-life":
I'm planning to mix ID-62 (see formula above in post #64), but I want to dissolve the two developers (phenidone and hydroquinone) in propylene glycol (PG). If I keep the PG solution refrigerated or frozen, and the stock solution at room temperature (hot in summer), I'm hoping that both will last over a year.
Has anyone tried this?
BTW, @relistan is putting developers in PG with his new PC-512 developer (here's the link to that thread).
Very interesting options,
One question concerning commercial powder developers: if I use only part of the package, the part that I use may have different proportions of its componentes, as compared to using the whole package. In other words, the distribution of the componentes (in powder form) may not be homogeneous.
I was advised against using parts of the film developer Kodak D-76 for this reason, dissolving the whole package every time was the right thing to do.
Does this apply also to paper developers ??
Thank you once more
Joao
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