Paper developer with long shelf life

Ian Grant said:

Doremus, ID-62 is used 1+3 for normal use, so double strength would be 1+7.

Mark, as an Albada viewfinder user I'm not sure why the need to split a developer that keeps well into two parts, except to show it can be done. There was a time when MQ print developers were two part, and I keep ID-3 on my darkroom shelf as in two parts, it's identical to D165/Selectol Soft (originally a Kodak Ltd developer), Adaptall Soft is tye same.

Well perhaps one reason to split, you could have three different Part B's, one Normal, one for Warm-tones, and one for Cold-tones.

Ian

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Ian,

My recipe is for the working solution (in essence the same dilutions as 1+3 from stock). Doubling that and halving the volume makes the usual stock solution. Sorry for the confusion. I've highlighted that in my original post.

I normally don't bother making a stock solutions of print developers when I'm only planning on printing for a day or two. I'll just make up what I need of the working solution. The two-liter recipe I use is for 12x16 trays, my standard. If I want to print larger, I'll make more to start with.

ID-62 will last me 2-3 sessions if I cover the tray or pour the developer back into a bottle after printing for the day. If I'm planning on many days of printing, I'll make the stock solution so I can mix up fresh developer quickly as needed.

Doremus

BlueWind said:

Hello
Can you recommend a B&W paper developer with long shelf life ? I usually like to print for two or three consecutive days, with intervals of several weeks.
Which developer would you recommend ?
The developer will be kept in dark air-tight bottles at room temperature.
Thank you
Joao

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Print faster?

Ian Grant said:

I'm not sure why the need to split a developer that keeps well into two parts, except to show it can be done.

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It's because I'm overcautious.
Knowing about the problems of hydrolysis and oxidation of phenidone, I have no confidence in storing it in an aqueous (I had to look-up the spelling of that) solution for months. So I put it and HQ in PG to ensure their longevity.

Does anyone know how long stock ID-62 lasts?

Doremus Scudder said:

Potassium bromide --------- rounded 1/8 tsp
Benzotriazole --------------- 10ml of a 1% solution

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Doremus, out of curiosity, have you (or anyone else reading this) tried omitting the Potassium bromide and Benzo?
ID-62 is a 1950s formula designed for 1950s papers, so I'm wondering whether modern papers need these restrainers or the color-adjustments they give.
Omitting them would make only four chemicals to mix, making mixing per session more attractive.

You have no sequestering agent for calcium and magnesium ions found in tap water. Are you using distilled water?

albada said:

ID-62

Success! ID-62 with a separate PG solution works! I mixed them and tried it, with perfect results on Foma RC. I developed for 2 minutes at room temperature, and blacks are a hint darker than what Liquidol produced: densities were 1.91 vs 1.87.
The hydroquinone and phenidone are dissolved in propylene glycol (PG), and the rest are in the usual stock solution.
If these two solutions are stored in glass or PET bottles, and the PG solution kept refrigerated, I suspect they will last a couple of years (based on my experiences with other concentrates).

Here's what I mixed:

PG Solution

Propylene glycol (hot: 75-80 C) ..... 40 ml​

Hydroquinone ................................ 12 g​

Phenidone ...................................... 0.5 g​

Propylene glycol to make ............... 50 ml​

Stock Solution

Water .............................................. 800 ml​

Na2EDTA ........................................ 4 g (mix this first to avoid precipitates when adding alkalis below)​

Sodium sulfite, anh ......................... 50 g​

Sodium carbonate, anh .................. 60 g​

Potassium bromide ......................... 2 g​

Benzotriazole .................................. 0.2 g​

To Make 400 ml of Working Solution

Stock solution ................................. 100 ml​

PG solution ..................................... 5 ml​

Water to .......................................... 400 ml​

The EDTA is needed only if you'll be using tap water; it's not needed for distilled water.
My chemicals are 8-10 years old, and some are suspect because they were stored in bottles made of HDPE instead of glass or PET. The Phenidone turned light orange when dissolved in PG, making me suspect that my old PG has some water in it. When mixed with stock solution, the orange vanished because the sulfite restored the phenidone.

I don't have a hot plate, so I used a strip of scrap sheet aluminum on the stove.

View attachment 323012

I turn on only the left burner, at a medium-low setting, and the temperature of the sheet metal ranges from too hot (left) to too cool (right). I slide the beaker to the left or right to maintain correct temperature. I call this arrangement "the poor man's hot plate." I stir with the thermometer, so I can constantly monitor the temperature of the PG solution.

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I like your hot plate solution Mark. This is great.

Also glad to hear that this worked how you wanted. It’s nice to have a developer you can quickly mix when needed and then be inactive for months, come back and mix another quickly. This looks like a good way to do that.

albada said:

Doremus, out of curiosity, have you (or anyone else reading this) tried omitting the Potassium bromide and Benzo?

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Sure. Makes very little difference on most papers. Besides, after a few prints there'll be some bromide in there anyway.

albada said:

It's because I'm overcautious.
Knowing about the problems of hydrolysis and oxidation of phenidone, I have no confidence in storing it in an aqueous (I had to look-up the spelling of that) solution for months. So I put it and HQ in PG to ensure their longevity.

Does anyone know how long stock ID-62 lasts?

Click to expand...

albada said:

Doremus, out of curiosity, have you (or anyone else reading this) tried omitting the Potassium bromide and Benzo?
ID-62 is a 1950s formula designed for 1950s papers, so I'm wondering whether modern papers need these restrainers or the color-adjustments they give.
Omitting them would make only four chemicals to mix, making mixing per session more attractive.

You have no sequestering agent for calcium and magnesium ions found in tap water. Are you using distilled water?

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When Ilford began selling PQ developers commercially they sold a powder developer ID20 PQ which replaced their MQ developer ID20. This contained Bromide bit no Benzotriazole. There were problems with shifts in image colour with use due to Bromide build up, and customer complaints. So the developer was reformulated as ID-62 now including Benzotriazoleand released as a liquid concentrate PQ Universal. Bromophen is probably ID-20PQ and contains no Benzotriazole.

Benzotriazole is best mixed as a 1% solution 10g Benzotriazole in a 1 litre solution of 1% Sodium Carbonate (anhyd). This is Ilford IBT Restrainer.

So Benzotriazole is used to control image colour and prevent the increase in warmth, aside from the switch to Phenidone the main difference between ID-62 and ID-20 is the Bromide level has been halved from 4g to 2g and 0.2g Benzotriazole added in its place. Because PQ developers have a very significantly greater capacity Bromide levels build up past the point where the equivalent MQ developer would have its Metol inhibited by the Bromide.level.

When I have long printing sessions there can be a very noticeable shift in warmth with ID-78, however as I use FB warm tone papers the carry over of developer in the paper base means I'll have usually topped up with fresh developer.

So the answer to your question about leaving out Bromide & Benzotriazole is it will depend on the paper and how many prints in terms of surface area, a few prints you won't really notice.

ID62/ID-78 should easily last 6 months in a partially full high density plastic or glass bottle, I mix all chemistry (concentrates) with De-Ionised water.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

ID62/ID-78 should easily last 6 months in a partially full high density plastic or glass bottle, I mix all chemistry (concentrates) with De-Ionised water.

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Here in the US, distilled water costs $0.30/l in grocery stores, but kyantec.com sells Disodium EDTA for $0.10/g, which is $0.10/l in the working solution. So I save $0.20/l by using tap water and letting the EDTA chelate the calcium and magnesium salts. That savings is insignificant, but I appreciate the convenience of mixing both stock and working solutions with tap water.

Failure: After two days, the bottle of PG had a little stream of bubbles rising from bottom to top. I suspect that something went out of solution, fell to the bottom, and reacted with the solution, producing a gas. Perhaps the PG solution is unstable. I solved this problem by pouring it into the main stock solution. Ian's experience says >= 6 months, so even my overcautious personality says let's not hassle with two solutions.

@Ian Grant : Thank you for your web-site and your replies on this forum. Your site says you're writing a book of formulas. Can you estimate when it'll be published?

albada said:

@Ian Grant : Thank you for your web-site and your replies on this forum. Your site says you're writing a book of formulas. Can you estimate when it'll be published?

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Life put things on hold, and I'm committed to something else at the moment. I may change the approach and make it a searchable database.

Ian