Place the shadow. Place the highlight.

In my continuing effort to learn the Zone System, I saw something quite unexpected today in "The New Zone System Manual" co-authored by Minor White.

It says "With Polaroid and color transparencies, as a rule high values are placed".

Can anybody explain why?

The question has some extra significance because, several years after my love affair with Velvia (later quitting color completely), my wife has challenged me to take only a couple rolls of 35mm slide film for a 2-week vacation and shoot like it's large format.

With positive films, if you choose too much exposure for the highlights, you end up with little or nothing usable there, and you can't really fix it later.
With positive films, if you choose too little exposure for the highlights, they come out muddy, the shadows go too dark, and you may end up with little or nothing there, and you can't really fix it later.
Compare that with:
With negative films, if you choose too little exposure for the shadows, you end up with little or nothing usable there, and you can't really fix it later.
With negative films, if you choose too much exposure for the shadows, you can probably work with that, but the highlights may go too dense, in which case you may end up with little or nothing there, and improving on them won't necessarily render the results optimal.
Basically, you place your exposure in order to get things right in the thinnest parts of the image that ends up on the film - shadows for the negative, and highlights for the slide.
Instant photo materials behave a bit like slides.

The speed point is still near lower density (like B&W negative film), however, that lower density represents lighter values.

This is a diagram from ISO 7187 "Materials for direct-positive colour-print cameras -- Determination of ISO speed"

As you can see it is like a mirror image of the H&D curve for B&W negative film.

pbromaghin said:

In my continuing effort to learn the Zone System, I saw something quite unexpected today in "The New Zone System Manual" co-authored by Minor White.

It says "With Polaroid and color transparencies, as a rule high values are placed".

Can anybody explain why?

The question has some extra significance because, several years after my love affair with Velvia (later quitting color completely), my wife has challenged me to take only a couple rolls of 35mm slide film for a 2-week vacation and shoot like it's large format.

Click to expand...

Because Polaroid and color slides have a narrower bandwidth [response to a narrow range of light], one does not have the ability to work with the shadows and need to use the Zone System techniques to the high values.

Sounds more like something Adams would say, though not exactly e.g. in The Negative.

What is being referred to as 'Polaroid'??

Bright, but not the brightest, and dark, but not the darkest areas of the scene are metered as critical values. This implies not metering deep shadows, nor metering spectrals, but values you judge to be diffuse. I spot meter a scene like this (and have done so for many years) with Velvia and Provia and latterly Ektachrome. There is no leeway to bring back blown out highlights and likewise, completely black shadows — always a problem with E6 emulsions and Velvia 50, 100 and E100. None of these films were intended for exposure in bright point light, despite beginners and occasional users peppering the innernet-of-everything with supposedly "perfect!" exposures that, frankly don't pass the pub test.

From my very long experience, 35mm is the least suitable of any format to apply pseudo-ZS rules or even trust a camera's onboard metering to bring high and low values into equilibrium where values are at the margin. MF and LF provide for the most flexibility and accuracy. If you want exposures bang-on — and casting aside the dictum and dogma of the ZS for the sake of straight-bat simplicity, chose your scenes that are friendly to the film and present no great challenge to e.g. evaluative metering.

I do not use negative film. My expertise has been over close to 50 years, slide film.

It’s old and not easy reading, but a classic reference for this topic (and many other exposure-related topics) is J F Dunn’s 1952 Exposure Manual. It’s fairly easy to find an affordable copy from used book sources.

pbromaghin said:

In my continuing effort to learn the Zone System, I saw something quite unexpected today in "The New Zone System Manual" co-authored by Minor White.

It says "With Polaroid and color transparencies, as a rule high values are placed".

Can anybody explain why?

The question has some extra significance because, several years after my love affair with Velvia (later quitting color completely), my wife has challenged me to take only a couple rolls of 35mm slide film for a 2-week vacation and shoot like it's large format.

Click to expand...

The reason is that it makes more practical sense to place the tonal values where the medium is less tolerant and let them fall where it is more tolerant.

pbromaghin said:

The question has some extra significance because, several years after my love affair with Velvia (later quitting color completely), my wife has challenged me to take only a couple rolls of 35mm slide film for a 2-week vacation and shoot like it's large format.

Click to expand...

Good luck with that! Secretly take more rolls and smile real big when you're found out.

RalphLambrecht said:

The reason is that it makes more practical sense to place the tonal values where the medium is less tolerant and let them fall where it is more tolerant.

Click to expand...

I wish I had said it so well!

When I took Minor White's summer week long workshop in the 60s we used his Zone System Manual, the 1967 version and color was not mentioned. But, in The Zone System for 35mm Photographers by Carson Graves has a chapter on color. He wrote. Page 106

"Correct espouser for transparency film follows the same principle as for negative film. Exposure has the greatness effect on the areas of the lesnt density in the image. In the negative this is the shadows In a transparency (which is a positive image) these are the highlights,

This means that when you photograph with transparency film you select the most important highlights in the scene to previsualize and place. Up to certain limit, all the the tones darker than the highlights you place will appear in the image. This is possible because of the transparency's ability to render a wider range of tones than a print."

I have never used the zone system for color, so I can't vouch for Graves method, but it seems to makes sense.

Placing shadows with negative film and highlights with positive transparencies is basically the same thing; making sure the part of the film with the least density has adequate exposure. In the case of transparency film (and Polaroids), there is little control over the dynamic range of the film and it is usually deemed better to let shadows go too dark than to blow out the highlights in situations too contrasty for the medium to render everything.

Best,

Doremus

Lots of great answers. Thank you all for all the shockingly consistent answers!

I lean toward Ektar because it's just that little bit easier to use than any slide film. Over a decade ago, there were a couple years where I shot mostly Velvia and Provia using a Minolta X-570 in aperture-priority mode. I don't know how comfortable I will be yet with using spot meter placing for important photos, and I may fall back to built-in reflective or incident metering. The tentative schedule for first real Zone System shooting was to commence sheet film use and individual processing sometime this summer.

Have you tested for your E.I for your camera, lens, film and developer combo? If you don't have access to a densitometry buy a copy of Carson Graves book, although intended for roll film his method of shooting a ring around for film speed will work for sheet film as well.

I haven't tested the EI, but I will be using what has been my favorite camera for not quite 20 years. Today I went through all the slides from my Velvia period (2008 - 2010). Not having seen them in about 10 years, they looked surprisingly good. Good enough to trust the camera meter for this assignment and not rush prematurely into the Zone System. But I will have to be careful to avoid a shadowed subject with bright sky surrounding it and to forget about shooting under overcast sky.

Bracket for 35mm and MF. It's cheap enough.

This New Zone System Manual is heavy slogging. I might read a paragraph and spend 15 minutes thinking of it's implications, or a page and then a half-hour. It will be quite a while before it gets to detailed calibration. However, since my old reliable incident meter died and has been replaced, and I also got a Pentax spot meter, some preliminary comparisons are in order, along with a couple 35mm cameras.
I expect this can be done by taking in incident reading and then readings off a grey card with each other device.

Comments?

pbromaghin said:

This New Zone System Manual is heavy slogging. I might read a paragraph and spend 15 minutes thinking of it's implications, or a page and then a half-hour. It will be quite a while before it gets to detailed calibration. However, since my old reliable incident meter died and has been replaced, and I also got a Pentax spot meter, some preliminary comparisons are in order, along with a couple 35mm cameras.
I expect this can be done by taking in incident reading and then readings off a grey card with each other device.

Comments?

Click to expand...

It took very heavy slogging through the Zone System until I could distill it and get it simplified. Then I concentrated on the exposure part only and the clouds really cleared and it became much simpler and easier to us.

1. Stick to box speed
2. Choose which shadow detail is the darkest one that you want the details showing.
3. Place it in Zone 2, Zone 3 or Zone 4
4. Use a spot meter and meter without the sky in the field of view
5. Based on the location and zone you chose, calculate the exposure for the negative.
6. Adjust for any filter factors.
7. If necessary adjust the exposure time for reciprocity failure

Sirius Glass said:

It took very heavy slogging through the Zone System until I could distill it and get it simplified. Then I concentrated on the exposure part only and the clouds really cleared and it became much simpler and easier to us.

1. Stick to box speed
2. Choose which shadow detail is the darkest one that you want the details showing.
3. Place it in Zone 2, Zone 3 or Zone 4
4. Use a spot meter and meter without the sky in the field of view
5. Based on the location and zone you chose, calculate the exposure for the negative.
6. Adjust for any filter factors.
7. If necessary adjust the exposure time for reciprocity failure

Click to expand...

Very well thought out and well said. This may be about where I am headed, especially with medium format. I do still want to come to at least a theoretical understanding of The Zone System as a whole, and plan to experiment with the Speed Graphic and Stearman 445 this summer. This has turned out to be a MUCH deeper branch of the photography rabbit hole than I had imagined.

With the Zone System or BTZS you do not stick to box speed. Why? In the days or yore when film was king, most film was bought by amatures, newspapers, commercial photographers. The manufacturers, although they used ASA later ISO standards they tended to error on the side of film speed rather than shadow details. Fine art photographers like AA and Minor White were less intrested in film speed, AA hated dark shadows, he wanted shadows with texture. Tmax 3200 is a case in point. Most who have tested Tmax 3200 find it have a true speed of 1200 to 1600, but Kodak DX codes it as 3200, it is intended for action not fine arts. I was bit surprised that when Kodak Alaris brought TMax 3200 back to the market that they did not market as 1600, with Delta 3200 still on the market I guess they did want seem to seem as slower than Delta. Finding the correct E.I is needed to maintain open shadows, then use a spot meter or get close enough with a reflective meter for your visualized shadows, usually zone II or III, then meter for your visualized highlights, record and develop to matched the visualized highlight.

BTZY does away with most of this thinking. Phil Davis does seem to care much for visualization, he wants a negative that provides all the possible tones for Z III to Z IV the zones with texture. His system uses an indecent meters, he meters the shadows and highlight to determine the Scene Brightness Range, that data along with other data goes in to Android App that spits out the exposure and development time. In BTZS you do test for your film and developer combo, needed for the App. I do not use BTZS, but I have seen great work. The View Camera Store is an online shop that sells all things BTZS including testing fo sheet and roll film.


There are many people who take part of the Zone System and call it the Zone, it is not the true system. It may work for them, depending on preferences. As a former PJ when shooting 35mm I don't pay much attention to shadow, I'm looking for action, a moment in time. 35mm landscapes, I shoot close to box speed and use matrix or incident metering. With sheet film, something times I shoot with an incident meter, using my established E.I. When I'm in a zone frame of mind, back the basics and I follow Minor Whites approach.
,
In my testing my 4X5 lens with Tmax 400 and DDX, based on a shoot around, I do get an E.I of 400. With Foma 400 200, 100 60. Ultrafine and Kentmere 400 work for at 320 in MCM 100 and D76, at 600 in Diafine and Acufine. Another person may or may get the same results. Leaf shutters do age, finding repair techs to keep old shutters in tolerance gets harder and harder. And because I shoot a ring round who knows what my aging eyes actually see.

Paul Howell said:

His system uses an indecent meters,

Click to expand...

oooh, where can I get one of these?

Paul Howell said:

His system uses an indecent meters,

Click to expand...

Are they wearing loose fitting leather cases or acting out in inappropriate ways?

Sirius Glass said:

It took very heavy slogging through the Zone System until I could distill it and get it simplified. Then I concentrated on the exposure part only and the clouds really cleared and it became much simpler and easier to us.

1. Stick to box speed
2. Choose which shadow detail is the darkest one that you want the details showing.
3. Place it in Zone 2, Zone 3 or Zone 4
4. Use a spot meter and meter without the sky in the field of view
5. Based on the location and zone you chose, calculate the exposure for the negative.
6. Adjust for any filter factors.
7. If necessary adjust the exposure time for reciprocity failure

Click to expand...

I don't remember that paragraph but it is indeed very confusing and possibly wrong.

RalphLambrecht said:

I don't remember that paragraph but it is indeed very confusing and possibly wrong.

Click to expand...

Not a paragraph. A distillation of many sources. Alan Ross [studies under Ansel Adams and is the primary printer for the Ansel Adams family] reviewed it carefully with me and agrees that I have it down correctly. The darkroom work goes well and has all the advertised working features.

Sirius Glass said:

Are they wearing loose fitting leather cases or acting out in inappropriate ways?

Click to expand...

Well I don't know, as Phil Davis is now dead we cant ask.

Forget the zone system, just expose for the highlights and let the shadows take care of themselves.