Potassium Dichromate Bleach?

Athiril · Apr 4, 2009

On one of my trips scouring the net I came across this reciple for b&w slide processing (Dead Link Removed)

which lists a bleach recipe:
water 1000.0 milliliters
potassium dichromate 10.0 grams
sulfuric acid 12.0 milliliters

Can someone shed some light on this, if this bleach performs the same function as a colour bleach? and in effect can be used to bleach colour film (regardless of colour shifts).

I was just thinking for us frugal digital darkroom users that this in terms of economy beats the pants off of even a copper sulfate bleach.

Ian Grant · Apr 4, 2009

It would work but it's not used for Colour work as it's gross overkill, it's a Black & White reversal bleach. It's more hazardous than Ferricyanide or EDTA based bleaches, the strong acidity is likely to cause a colour shift

It's function is slightly different in that it converts all the silver to soluable Silver Chromates while conventional colour bleaches convert silver to a halide which is then removed by fixing.

Ian

stefan4u · Apr 4, 2009

As Ian told, this is the classic BW reversal bleach. It does dissolve developed silver areas after first developing but does not touch undeveloped silver halides, which shall form the positive image after light exposing and second development.

Its very effective, re-usable, quite stable and does not harm film emulsion as bad as its eco-replacement (Potassium permanganate). But its toxic for almost every kind of living organism and a carcinogen, despite the fact it was used much more in former times.

Be very careful if ever working with this and dispose it properly, never do a sewer disposal !!

Regards,
Stefan

Athiril · Apr 4, 2009

stefan4u said:
As Ian told, this is the classic BW reversal bleach. It does dissolve developed silver areas after first developing but does not touch undeveloped silver halides, which shall form the positive image after light exposing and second development.

Its very effective, re-usable, quite stable and does not harm film emulsion as bad as its eco-replacement (Potassium permanganate). But its toxic for almost every kind of living organism and a carcinogen, despite the fact it was used much more in former times.

Be very careful if ever working with this and dispose it properly, never do a sewer disposal !!

Regards,
Stefan

carcinogen? so if i wear a dust mask, and rubber gloves it's still a bad idea to handle?

I guess copper sulphate bleach would be much better than.

What kind of disposal? patch of lawn in the corner?

stefan4u · Apr 4, 2009

Please read the following MSDS

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-Potassium_dichromate-9927404

This is not really the stuff to begin with

Regards,
Stefan

RobertV · Apr 4, 2009

The stuff is dangerous in that way the EU obliged manufactureres to switch over to Potassium Permanganate in the B&W reversal kits from Tetenal (in the mean time discontinued) and Foma.

stefan4u · Apr 4, 2009

High athiril

Definitely it is dangerous, take a break and read that data sheet from “sciencelab”, please.

What the EU says and the way they set priority is somehow relative. They just banned Mercury for thermometers etc. in April and now spreading it over whole Europe through CFL’s because they see a risk in incandescent bulbs. Strange world…

Off topic, I know, but couldn’t resist

Regards,
Stefan

Ian Grant · Apr 4, 2009

It's not THAT dangerous as long as you're careful. If it gets near a cut or scratch it will cause the wound to not heal properly & ulcerate, so use gloves.

There are far worse chemicals that can be used for photography, I was responsible for running a laboratory (precious metal testing) and had to draw up the Health & Safety (COSSH) procedures to meet EU Regulations, they were quite sensible but thorough.

Ian

pentaxuser · Apr 4, 2009

I haven't used it but Tim Rudman mentions its use several times in his excellent: The Photographer's Master Prining Course" It clearly forms a valuable weapon in his printing armoury. His book was first printed in 1994 so not in "the dark ages" as far as omitting to mention the need to take sensible precautions against harmful chemicals. He mentions it as being corrosive and causes skin ulceration as do several darkroom chemicals that require sensible precautions but to the best of my knowledge he is still in the rudest of health.

So a sense of proportion may be needed here. Oh and as far as I am aware his title of Doctor refers to his medical background so he is likely to know what substances are just too dangerous to even think about using for the amateur darkroom enthusiast. It wouldn't appear to fall into that list.

pentaxuser

sanking · Apr 4, 2009

Dichromate is definitely not very dangerous if used with reasonable care. In fact, in the dilute solutions we use it photographic applications it represents almost no threat after it goes into solution. Also, it is used in very minute amounts in photographic applications.

Main precautions, take care in mixing the dry chemical into solution, don't drink the solution, and wear gloves to avoid dermal absorption.

Sandy King

Ian Grant said:
It's not THAT dangerous as long as you're careful. If it gets near a cut or scratch it will cause the wound to not heal properly & ulcerate, so use gloves.

There are far worse chemicals that can be used for photography, I was responsible for running a laboratory (precious metal testing) and had to draw up the Health & Safety (COSSH) procedures to meet EU Regulations, they were quite sensible but thorough.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Apr 4, 2009

Dichromate is not all that dangerous. I agree with Ian and Sandy. It does have problems, but it will remove silver and form the Silver Sulfate (soluable) salt and that is why the bleach is a mix of Dichromate and Sulfuric Acid.

The problem is that it cannot be used in the C-41 process cycle unless you do the folowing process:

Color develop as usual
Stop + Sodium Sulfite
Wash
Bleach with Dichromate or Permanganate or Ferricyanide bleach - your choice.
Clear bath of Sodium Sulfite
Wash
Fix
Wash
Stabilize.

If you do not use the stop and clear as noted above you are going to have problems.

Also, there is no guarantee that the C-41 dyes will survive the extreme acid of the Dichromate or Permanganate bleach baths. That is your problem.

The same statements can be said about E6 use of these bleaches.

PE

stefan4u · Apr 4, 2009

I dont wanna add fuel to the flames, but still tend to disagree; its described to be quite poisonous, carcinogenetic, mutagen and teratogenic. It was "upgraded" in the mid 90's as far as I know. But OK, these nasty risks can be widely reduced by safe and accurate handling. Wearing nitrile rubber gloves, avoiding any skin contact and never ever inhale dust are the way to handle it. But it is stays potentially dangerous.

LC50 for a rat is 0.094mg/L/4h inhaled

Lowest Published Lethal Dose:
LDL [Man] - Route: Oral; Dose: 143 mg/kg
LDL [Child] - Route: Oral; Dose 26 mg/kg

Other sources claim that 0.5g till 1g swallowed kill a man (most likely a child), the truth will be somewhere between. Store it well and safe !
Absolutely nothing to use without need, a color bleach does not have to be that poisons. The old stlyle Potassium ferricynide looks nearly healthy, compared: LDL [Rat] - route: Oral; Dose: 1600 mg/kg, (LD50) [Mouse]: Oral: 2970 mg/kg (Potassium ferricyanide)
Being aware that there are more noxious substances and no one intentionally messes around with chemicals, common darkroom chemicals can be described as fountain of youth if compared. Well, maybe accidently hydrogen cyanide releasing compounds excluded

Further concern is putting this into the drain after usage; Chromates tend to slip through sewage plants or can harm the microbes for biological treatment. ChromVI is very poisonous for flora and fauna in rivers and seas and does not vanish due sedimentation, it too solublemaybe a biologist can describe this better

These are my information and this stuff is one of the few (hobby) lab chemicals I give to hazardous waste collection after (very rare) usage.

Regards,
Stefan

Athiril · Apr 4, 2009

Thanks for the tips Photo Engineer,

So, I can always make the working solution weaker for colour?

Hmm I'll do more research, vanbar has all of these different chemicals for sale, so I do have a choice of what I can make

mts · Apr 5, 2009

Your Pot. dichromate/sulfuric acid "bleach" is called tray cleaner in the old Kodak B&W formulas booklet. It works to clean out badly stained trays and bottles but isn't good for the environment. A similar chromic acid compound was used as boiler cleaner to clean steam lines for many years until it too was banned for the above mentioned environmental and health reasons. It's certainly not acceptable as bleach for film. The ferricyanide formula can be used as PE notes, but it is by no means ideal for modern films. It was the original C-22 bleach for Kodacolor-I, II when those emulsions were introduced well before C-41 came to life.

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2009

Athiril said:
Thanks for the tips Photo Engineer,

So, I can always make the working solution weaker for colour?

Hmm I'll do more research, vanbar has all of these different chemicals for sale, so I do have a choice of what I can make

I didn't say that.

PE

DarkroomExperimente · Apr 5, 2009

I used Kodak's "system cleaner" for my BW reversal bleach...easier than mixing it from scratch

re:toxicity ....doesn't the sodium sulfite bath turn the hexavalent chromium into a less nasty valence of chromium?

the first time I used this bleach it was about midnight and I realized I had the dichromate, but no acid...I went out to my car with an eyedropper and a huge grin...took 12ml of acid out of my car battery...worked perfect

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2009

Battery acid is about 35% sulfuric acid or thereabouts. It will work.

Chromium is chromium and can be toxic in several valence states so as I said above... It is not as bad as all that, but it is not benign by any means and in any state. Be careful.

The sulfite is more to reduce the dichromate so that it does not destroy the hypo in the fixer and it does not stain the film with chromium salt mixes.

PE

RPC · Apr 5, 2009

Is it necessary to use a clearing sulfite bath when using ferricyanide? I have used a ferricyanide bleach along with the stop + sodium sulfite, but not the clearing sulfite bath after the bleach step, and have not noticed any problems.

RPC

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2009

Ferricyanide will oxidize hypo very rapidly and form sulfur, sulfur dioxide and hydrogen sulfide. The sulfur can cause a haze in your film and the overall oxidation can reduce the life and capacity of the fixer.

The choice of what to do is yours. If it works, what can I say but let you know what may happen.

PE

RPC · Apr 5, 2009

Wouldn't the wash after the bleach remove enough ferricyanide? If I decide to try the clearing bath, how many g/liter of sulfite should be used?

RPC

Photo Engineer · Apr 5, 2009

There are several clearing bath formulas posted here and there. It is the one used for reversal B&W processing.

The wash after the bleach is iffy due to the variable nature of water supplies and your method of washing such as flow rate and agitation. So, I can't really tell. All I can do is tell you what you "MIGHT" get.

PE

Ricardoleite · Jul 13, 2013

Ian Grant said:
It's not THAT dangerous as long as you're careful. If it gets near a cut or scratch it will cause the wound to not heal properly & ulcerate, so use gloves.

There are far worse chemicals that can be used for photography, I was responsible for running a laboratory (precious metal testing) and had to draw up the Health & Safety (COSSH) procedures to meet EU Regulations, they were quite sensible but thorough.

Ian

I've ben using potassium bichromate for 15 years now, i've mixed maybe more than 200 doses of bleach since i began working with film.

Some months ago my doctor found a lump of 2cm in my thyroid, i must say i got scared, after all there are some studies about Thyroid Hyperplasia to people exposed to chromium, i'm waiting for the results of the tests,

But tell me Ian, what other chemistry do you think is more dangerous? I've been working in my lab for years and now i'm switching all toxic chemistry to low or non-toxic components like ascorbic acid, phenidone, etc.

Photo Engineer · Jul 13, 2013

We had over 2,500 people in the Research Labs at Kodak. Studies showed that the causes of death or illness of these people were about identical to the other people that were tracked in such statistics.

In fact, I took blood tests every 6 months keeping track of the status of my health while I was a bench chemist or pkoto engineer.

PE

Potassium Dichromate Bleach?

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