Question About The New Cyanotype Process

F4U

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Admittedly I'm behind the curve on the latest things. Apparently the "new" cyanotype process dates back to about 1997? Some fellow got a longer tonal range out of it, as I i leaned today. I could study about it, but that would take time and reading of many threads for answers that might not be there.. But with my ticker, the days of being vertical grow shorter quickly. Hence, I start my own thread. Firs question: It seems more economical than silver-based, but frankly I don't care for that cold blue color to everything. I've studied about coffee and tea toning, but wouldn't that also stain the paper? 2) I have a lot of old outdated non-RC paper. Could you just use the backside of that as it is, or would it contaminate the process? Back to another toning question: Can you tone the cyanotype with warm or selenium tones without staining the paper too? Lastly. Is this process "archival", even though I am certainly not? Thank you.
 

koraks

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F4U said:
It seems more economical than silver-based, but frankly I don't care for that cold blue color to everything. I've studied about coffee and tea toning, but wouldn't that also stain the paper?
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Simple answer; yes, but it depends on the toner and how you use it. @fgorga is one of the people who have posted some toner tests. See e.g. here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/on-the-toning-of-cyanotypes.175185/

F4U said:
2) I have a lot of old outdated non-RC paper. Could you just use the backside of that as it is, or would it contaminate the process?
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No, the backside of RC paper isn't very usable. Sensitizer tends to not coat well onto it and it'll wash off for the most part. It's PE-lined, after all, which is water-repellent.
Classic cyanotype works on many papers; New Cyanotype is a bit more picky. You can do some searching online for papers that work for others, and there's the (paid) 'massive paper chart' prepared by Christina Z. Anderson which you can purchase here: https://www.alternativephotography.com/massive-paper-chart/

F4U said:
Can you tone the cyanotype with warm or selenium tones without staining the paper too?
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I don't think cyanotypes can be toned with regular selenium toning, no.

F4U said:
Is this process "archival", even though I am certainly not?
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Yes. The image is stable. It's Prussian blue, which is a very stable pigment. It's the same pigment that classic cyanotype produces and we have perfectly nice cyanotypes from the 1850s that look as good as they did the day they were made (supposedly; nobody lives to tell of course).
 

aconbere

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koraks said:
No, the backside of RC paper isn't very usable. Sensitizer tends to not coat well onto it and it'll wash off for the most part.
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Oddly enough, cyanotype does coat nicely to the /front/ of silver gelatin paper. A classmate experimented with it last quarter. The sensitizer seems to absorb into the emulsion and so you get very sharp images having no paper tooth to soften the image. You can fix out the paper before (or we hypothesized after), or you can leave it.

I imagine you’d get similar results with a well applied gelatin coating on one of the standard alt process papers, but I haven’t seen many folks talk about that.
 

fgorga

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F4U said:
Firs question: It seems more economical than silver-based, but frankly I don't care for that cold blue color to everything. I've studied about coffee and tea toning, but wouldn't that also stain the paper?
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Cyanotype, being iron-based, is probably the least expensive alt process. I say probably because cuprotype is also very inexpensive.

Coffee and tea are, in my view, the worst toning agents in terms of staining of the paper. That said, lots of folks use this method and are satisfied with it.

An alternative is to use tannic acid or other chemically defined polyphenols for toning. These are somewhat less staining but not perfect. I posted some of my results here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/on-the-toning-of-cyanotypes.175185/ several years ago.

These days, my favorite method for toning cyanotypes uses botanical dye stuffs and is described in a book by Annette Golaz, see: https://www.routledge.com/Cyanotype...ueprints-Naturally/Golaz/p/book/9780367553548. I am particularly fond of sumac toning with this method, but I also use many other materials. See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cyanotype-toning-options.207444/#post-2828187 and the few posts below this one.

In general, the choice of paper is important when toning cyanotypes; some papers stain more readily than others. You have to experiment.



RC papers won't work. By design they are meant to minimize absorption of water, exactly the opposite of what is needed for alt process printing.

I can't recommend a paper as I don't use the 'new' process which is reported to be much pickier about paper than the traditional process.

@koraks mentioned Chris Anderson's paper chart and while it is worth paying for the full version, there is a free, basic version available at the bottom of the page he linked to.

I am happy with the results I get with the traditional process and 'developing' with dilute vinegar instead of water. Thus, I have never tried the 'new' process.

Selenium toners will not work for cyanotype. The chemistry is specific to silver-based images.

F4U said:
Lastly. Is this process "archival", even though I am certainly not? Thank you.
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Cyanotype is certainly archival. There are prints from the 1840s that have survived in good shape.

However, I do not think that there has been any work on the stability of toned cyanotypes; at least none that I am aware of. So this is really an unknown.

The one shred of 'data', I have from my personal experience is shown here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/tannic-acid-toning-a-cyanotype.193948/#post-2585134
 

aconbere

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bernard_L said:
If you leave the silver halides in the gelatin they will do their lumen thing. unless you keep them in the dark and have only a quick look now and then. I would say fix before.
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It does, with the cyanotype it produces a rather interesting purple color that isn’t entirely unpleasant.
 

BHuij

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Your questions seem to have been answered quite well here, but I'll add my $0.02. After getting a really solid process down for making Kallitypes (theoretically a more complex process than new cyanotype), I spent quite a bit of time and effort messing around with New Cyanotype, mixing different ratios of sensitizer to Tween 20 to citric acid, messing with exposure times, etc. etc.

In the end I found it to be incredibly inconsistent. I later read accounts from multiple different people who struggled with New Cyanotype specifically on Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag, which is my paper of choice. I don't know the extent to which my problems stemmed from the use of HPR vs just being inherent in the process.

At any rate, I put away my New Cyanotype for now, and when I feel like getting back into Prussian Blue, I'm going to start with the classic recipe and see if I can't get more consistent results on my preferred paper.

If you take anything away from this comment, it's probably just to avoid HPR if you like the New Cyanotype formula.
 
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F4U

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What is "the lumen thing"? Is that where developing-out paper actually darkens without development when left out in the light? My original question was whether you can use the backside of outdated paper without having to fix and wash it before trying to use it for cyanotype. It's a lot of work and time washing fiber photographic prints. As for RC, I never cared for it in the first place. I would never have wanted to coat the emulsion side of the paper, because it's already a cream yellow until fixing. I asked because I have plenty and wondered if using the backside without having to fix and wash it would be ok. I don't drive a 1923 Maxwell, but still a bigger cheapskate than Jack Benny.
 
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F4U

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It is a wonder that nobody has marketed a consistent non silver printing out paper. The reason I inquired is that most of the "alternative" processes have silver nitrate in common. I don't know how much silver or silver nitrate costs these days, but I'm sure it's exorbitant, and comes with a time limit before it goes bad.
 

koraks

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F4U said:
What is "the lumen thing"?
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If you expose a normal B&W paper to intense light, it'll start to form an image without development (it will 'print out'). This happens in a colorful way, with yellow and pink hues initially, that transition into brown and grey ultimately. Such prints are not developed, but sometimes fixed, although fixing tends to remove most of the image and its colorfulness. These prints are called 'lumen prints'.

F4U said:
Is that where developing-out paper actually darkens without development when left out in the light?
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Exactly.

F4U said:
My original question was whether you can use the backside of outdated paper without having to fix and wash it before trying to use it for cyanotype.
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As I said earlier: no. Not RC paper at least. FB paper will be usable. The backside of RC paper will not accept the 'emulsion'. Note that 'emulsion' is a misnomer when it comes to cyanotype; it's just a watery solution.

F4U said:
I would never have wanted to coat the emulsion side of the paper, because it's already a cream yellow until fixing.
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You could fix out the paper, wash it and then coat the front side.

F4U said:
It is a wonder that nobody has marketed a consistent non silver printing out paper.
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It's a niche within a niche within a niche.
 

BHuij

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Silver nitrate is surprisingly affordable. You can get it for under $3/gram on Photographer's Formulary. Even 1g is enough for several 8x10 salt prints, for example. It's not as cheap as cyanotype chemicals, but it's nothing like gold, platinum, or palladium prices
 

koraks

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F4U said:
I don't know how much silver or silver nitrate costs these days, but I'm sure it's exorbitant, and comes with a time limit before it goes bad.
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Retail prices in sane quantities for amateur use presently hover around $1.30/gram or so. It lasts indefinitely.
 

fgorga

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Cyanotype paper is available commercially... https://sunprints.org/products/index.html. It works quite well for photograms but I have never tried using it to make a photograph (i.e. exposing it through a negative).

Historically, paper for platinum printing was commercially available as was silver-based albumin paper. However, as @koraks implies the size of the market for these would be incredibly small these days and thus not economically viable.

I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that "most" alt processes use silver. But having said that, cost is always a relative thing. Silver nitrate is about $1.25 per gram. One only uses a few milligrams (or a few pennies) per print so the cost of the silver is actually quite small in the over all scheme of things... for example, think about what the paper costs.

If you think silver is expensive, compare it to platinum/palladium where the requisite salts are roughly $35 per gram!!!

As for silver nitrate going bad, I think that you are misinformed. Both solid silver nitrate and stock solutions of this compound are very stable when stored appropriately (i.e. in the dark and, for solutions, in the absence of organic materials). This is simply not an issue in practice. Paper coated with silver nitrate is fairly unstable but again, this is not an issue in practice.
 
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F4U

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I have a question about buying watercolor paper. I just got back from Joann's (I hate them going out of business), and I saw a Strathmore watercolor tablet, and some lesser brand I can't remember both marketed as "white". But they weren't white at all. They were more cream or ivory, or natural. But they were nowhere near what I call white. Is that what to expect in shopping for paper for this? And please, I am not a "fine artist" who has to have the very best of everything. I'm more of the "cheapskate craftsman" type.
 

pentaxuser

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F4U From the above it would seem that the front side rather than the backside of old RC paper of which you have a lot can be used so that may be the answer you are looking for. I am here assuming that the classmate's experience was not a lucky one-off, of course

pentaxuser
 
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koraks

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F4U said:
Is that what to expect in shopping for paper for this?
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Well, yes, to a large extent. Many 'fine arts' papers are distinctly colored from the perspective of a darkroom printer who is mostly used to fairly neutral white/bright paper bases (with some exceptions like Fomatone MG). The only advice I can give is to shop around and keep looking. You'll run into some papers that are pretty pure white. One mill that tends to deliver rather bright/white papers is Magnani; I'm not sure how easy those are to get in the US. Papers like Incisioni and Corona are either all white (Corona), or come in ivory or white versions (Incisioni). There are others, too; a Dutch niche papermill by the name of Schut makes two papers that are nearly pure white; Laurier and Salland. I don't think they're easily obtainable in the US, though.

One thing to look out for is that some of the brighter white papers, especially the more affordable ones, are sometimes packed with optical brightening agents. This makes the papers appear very bright white (to the point of tending a bit towards blue) by means of fluorescence due to the UV component of daylight. The same technique is used in RA4 color printing paper and inkjet papers, BTW, as well as in most copier paper. It's quite effective, but has two drawbacks: (1) the archival stability of the OBA's is disputed, and it's conceivable that they wash out during processing from some paper bases (but not RA4). The other, more relevant IMO is that (2) papers that rely on OBA's for their whiteness tend to look distinctly less white and more 'foul' under artificial light (e.g. white interior LED light) that has no UV component in it. Thus, prints on these papers tend to look radically different in daylight vs. artificial light.

For these reasons, I prefer natural white papers, that tend to look a little less bright than the OBA-loaded papers, but at least they are consistent - and archivally stable. The Schut papers I mentioned fall in this category.

So the TL;DR is - shop around until you find something you like, and that works well with your process(es). Note that New Cyanotype is kind of picky when it comes to papers. The Magnani papers I mentioned don't work well with this process; the Schut papers do as they are more pure in composition.
 
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F4U

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I won't be using the "new" process. I found these. Wonder if they'd do.

Master's Touch Watercolor Paper Pad | Hobby Lobby | 1850734

Equip yourself with the right tools to create your next work of art, like this Master's Touch Watercolor Paper Pad. This premium, acid-free paper is made specifically for watercolor projects. It boasts a cold-pressed surface and a heavy weight. Use it to transport your imagination onto paper.
www.hobbylobby.com

Hot Press Watercolor Paper Pad | Hobby Lobby | 1337419

Swirl and spread your favorite colors across this Hot Press Watercolor Paper Pad for beautiful artistic creations! This hot-press paper features a thirty-percent cotton construction that's tailor-made for watercolor techniques. Plus, it's acid-free, so your designs will last longer than they...
www.hobbylobby.com
 
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koraks

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F4U said:
Wonder if they'd do.
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Couldn't tell you; that shop seems to blocks access from outside of the US.

All I can say is that you don't need to limit your search to watercolor papers. In fact, I rarely use those. Most of my printing is on other 'fine art' papers, mostly intended for either pencil drawing or printmaking.
 

MattKing

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FWIW, I can access that site from Canada.
 

koraks

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OK, I should have said "I'm not in the US and I can't access the link". We had something similar yesterday where I couldn't access a link but someone elsewhere on the European continent could. IDK the reason other than that it's clear they are running some kind of security layer (as many sites do) that is intended to either block access to anything they consider threatening and/or function as a commercial measure to avoid channel conflicts.
 

BrianShaw

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Hot press and cold press papers will give different looks. Hot will yield finer detail than cold due to surface and absorption differences. You should try both and see which you like best. For me, it is image dependent.

The watercolor pad approach works okay. Better papers work better, though.
 

BrianShaw

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BTW, the best success I’ve had with paper has been to visit a well-stocked art supply store. They are getting far and few between but might be worth a moderate journey. A university “book”store might be another worthy place to explore. And even if the paper selection is minimal, there are lots of inspirational items to pursue or purchase.
 

fgorga

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Agreed.

The chain craft stores are just that craft stores. These tend to have very small art sections that generally stock only the lowest end products. While some of the papers they stock will certainly work for cyanotype, you will find a larger selection of better paper at a true art store.

The idea of shopping at a university bookstore can be a good one. Call ahead though, not all of them stock art supplies.

As for specific papers for cyanotype, my two favorites are Fabriano Unica which comes in both a white and a very warm ivory and Hahnemühle Bamboo Mixed Media which is a warm white. Both can be found in pads/blocks. Both are inexpensive although probably not as inexpensive as 'no name' or house brands from the craft stores. I usually buy them online, often from Dick Blick.

Lastly, as others have mentioned, the choice of cold press or hot press in water color papers, this is a personal choice. Personally, I use only pretty smooth papers for cyanotypes (and other alt process prints) based on a photographic negative as I want the details to show. Textured papers show less detail but I do sometimes use them for photograms.
 
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F4U

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We now live in a day and time where retail stores are largely out of business because of the internet. And going on the internet is often a big "no" because of shipping costs. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
 
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