Photo Engineer said:The original question that I posed remains.
I like to think I know. I have been experimenting with more direct ways of getting the Rodinal results. If you add p-aminophenol (not the hydrochloride) to a solution of sodium or potassium hydroxide and a sulfite, you first get the solution of the PAP which is really the formation of the soluble sodium p-aminophenolate. When you use up the hydroxide, you get the precipitation of p-aminophenol. Aerial oxidation of a molecule of dissolved sodium p-aminophenolate produces a molecule of monosulfonate and a molecule of the hydroxide. The molecule of hydroxide can make the soluble aminophenolate out of a molecule of the precipitate, thus replenishing the Rodinal stock as long as the precipitate lasts. The sulfite is there to form the monosulfonate. There's not enough concentration possible to do much else.Photo Engineer said:Kirk, all of what you say is possible and that is the point of my question. Add concentrated alkali to that without proper safeguards, and you are going to end up with a lot of stuff going on.
Best to just use the original Rodinol and mix it right.
BTW, did anyone find the other question, about Rodinol itself and why it works and how it works? Any suggestions on how to make it better? There is more chemistry going on in Rodinol than you might expect, and it has nothing to do with Kirk's answer above about those derived from acetaminophen.
Kirk, you got an "A+" in Organic Chemistry this semester.
PE
gainer said:I like to think I know. I have been experimenting with more direct ways of getting the Rodinal results. If you add p-aminophenol (not the hydrochloride) to a solution of sodium or potassium hydroxide and a sulfite, you first get the solution of the PAP which is really the formation of the soluble sodium p-aminophenolate. When you use up the hydroxide, you get the precipitation of p-aminophenol. Aerial oxidation of a molecule of dissolved sodium p-aminophenolate produces a molecule of monosulfonate and a molecule of the hydroxide. The molecule of hydroxide can make the soluble aminophenolate out of a molecule of the precipitate, thus replenishing the Rodinal stock as long as the precipitate lasts. The sulfite is there to form the monosulfonate. There's not enough concentration possible to do much else.
This is going about the mixing of Rodinal in reverse order and with simpler ways of getting the active molecules together, but it helps to understand what goes on. At any rate, the result acts just like the last Rodinal I bought. If you mix Rodinal according to the recipes I have seen, you wind up with sodium or potassium chloride in the stock, but not in enough concentration to make any difference in use or results.
Anyway, that's my view of it.
In fact, Metol is another starting point for the same type of concentrate. It is very simple:Photo Engineer said:Just some information here.
The Lye that I get here is often rather crummy stuff. If it is not pure white flakes, don't use it.
Acetaminophen and other drug intended or vitamin intended chemicals often contain fillers such as starch which will cause cloudy colloidal suspensions of the filler. These fillers can lodge in gelatin leading to a grainy appearing effect in the final film. So, be careful and filter out that stuff.
Finally, the real Rodinol formula is unique and does not need any benzotriazole or bromide as antifoggant. Its particular chemistry related characteristics have not really been caught or captured by anyone here. I wonder if anyone out there (that I have not told) will be able to discover what I'm referring to?
There is room for a whole family of Rodinol type developers with a range of subtle characteristics based on my observations in the lab. One thing I must point out is that properly mixed Rodinol or its work alikes should not ever have a purple color. The final stock solution should resemble tea.
Good luck to you all.
PE
Aggie said:sorry but I have not read this thread. I was in Vegas today and stopped at the only good camera store I could find. They have cases of Rodinal in the back. If you want some, I would suggest contacting them. Sergio at Casey's Camera on Tropicana.
Photo Engineer said:He {me} is on the right track and most everyone is missing three essential factoids about this developer. Maybe more.
Gerald Koch said:Solution 1
Distilled water ......................... 625 ml
Paraminophenol HCl ...................... 100.0 g
Potassium metabisulfite ................. 300.0 g
Add a pinch of the bisulfite to the water and then add the p-aminophenol hydrochloride and when dissolved add the rest of the metabisulfite.
Solution 2
Distilled water (10°C) .................. 300 ml
Sodium hydroxide ........................ 200 g
Distilled water to make (10°C) .......... 400 ml
Method of Preparation
Concentrated paraminophenol formulas are prepared differently from other
developers. Follow the directions below carefully.
Add 280 ml of Solution 2 to Solution 1 with stirring. A precipitate of paramino-
phenol will form. Slowly add more Solution 2 with constant stirring until there
is a sudden darkening in color. At this point, begin adding Solution 2 drop by
drop until all but a small amount of the precipitate dissolves.
IT IS IMPORTANT THAT NOT ALL OF THE PRECIPITATE DISSOLVES.
ROTFLMAO!!!Photo Engineer said:<snip> Don't you just love it? Oh, right, you are an anylytical chemist. Sorry.
PE
No, but I am still confused about whether this chemistry must go on. All I can see that is lacking when you dissolve the hydroxide and sulfite first and use p-aminophenol instead of the hydrochloride is an insignificanr amount of sodium chloride. The net result, if you have less hydroxide than is necessary to convert all the p-aminophenol.HCl into sodium p-aminophenolate is a solution of sodium p-aminophenolate with a small amount of undissolved p-aminophenol, and that thinks it is Rodinal. For each molecule of the sodium paraminophenolate that is oxidized by oxygen in the presence of sulfite, a molecule of precipitated p-aminophenol is made soluble.Kirk Keyes said:Did I mention that none of this proposed chemistry would be going on if the hydroxide or the bisulfite or sulfite was dissolved first?
Kirk
Earl Dunbar said:ROTFLMAO!!!
I loved organic, partly because I "got it", and partly because the prof was an excellent teacher. Make that the other way around, probably. My proudest moment was in one lecture session when I asked a question and the prof said, "We just don't know." Not only was I proud of myself, but my already high estimation of the prof shot up even more.
But that was so many years ago, and I haven't "used" it in so long, it's nearly totally foreign to me.
Anyway, thanks for the laugh.
Earl
So, you are saying I'm wrong, that I do not have a developer that looks like Rodinal, smells like Rodinal, and acts like Rodinal? Or are you just saying that my reasons for believing so are wrong, therefore it cannot be Rodinal? I saw that error too many times in my 30 years with NASA. Theoretical aerodynamicists said certain experimental results could not be right because they did not agree with theory. Chemists have killed more people by mistakes than I ever will by making ersatz Rodinal.Photo Engineer said:Patrick, leave chemstry to chemists then.
PE
Some years ago I wrote for Photo Techniques an article entitled "Salt to Taste." Sodium chloride as a restrainer requires huge concentrations compared to the bromide in order to make any difference either in base fog or in apparent grain. If the chloride liberated from the p-aminophenol.HCl made any difference in the fog or gradations it would be a simple matter to add it in whatever amounts were necessary. There is no more base fog resulting from my homebrew than from AGFA Rodinal.Photo Engineer said:Patrick, simply put, chloride is both an antifoggant and a silver halide solvent. Balance between those two properties and the property of being a silver halide solvent along with sulfite being a silver halide solvent is criticial.
I am a chemist and this boggles me. It should give you pause in your work as well if it causes problems for experts. Please, please don't be so glib in your assertations. Things are not cut and dry.
PE
Gerald Koch said:The rather odd preparation of the developer makes perfect sense when one considers chemical manufacture a century ago. Potassium bisulfite was sold as a roughly 45% solution and sodium hydroxide as a 50% solution. Since the composition of both solutions was somewhat variable a specific amount of the sodium hydroxide solution could not be specified. Fortunately, the existence or non-existence of a precipitate of p-aminophenol base can act as an indicator to the completeness of the reaction to generate the phenolate.
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