Rodinal Substitutes?

Photo Engineer

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Kirk, there are two problems. Aerial oxidation and high pH. If you control or minmize one, you minimize the other. There are two parts to the reaction as well, as you surmise, polymerization (or dimerization in the case you cite) can take place as well as oxidation and then polymerization and as an old organic chemist, I can tell you that they never go 100% the way you expect.

I guess the way to look at this is the more colored the solution, the more side reactions have taken place and the less chemistry available for the main show. This is true for any developer. We all can judge that a bottle of developer turning more and more brown on the shelf is going bad. Well, the same thing is true mixing it fresh. If done wrong, you can mess it up and it will be less active than desired right away.

Gerald, your comment is also correct and to the point here.

The original question that I posed remains.

PE
 

Kirk Keyes

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Photo Engineer said:
The original question that I posed remains.

OK - it looked like an aldol condensation type reaction to make the indigo related compound. (It would be similar to Tyrian Purple as well.)

Well - there's an analytical test for acetaminophen that uses a reaction with o-cresol - how about something like this. Hydrolysis breaks the acetaminophen into p-aminophenol and acetate. Then some of the p-aminophenol oxidizes into o-cresol? The o-cresol and the p-aminophenol then combine to make indophenol.

Indophenol is blue in basic solutions and red in acidic ones. And indophenol can be used as an indicator for acsorbic acid.

Like I said, I ain't no stinkin organic chemist. How about a question about ion chromatography, cyanide, or alkalinity titrations!
 

Photo Engineer

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Kirk, all of what you say is possible and that is the point of my question. Add concentrated alkali to that without proper safeguards, and you are going to end up with a lot of stuff going on.

Best to just use the original Rodinol and mix it right.

BTW, did anyone find the other question, about Rodinol itself and why it works and how it works? Any suggestions on how to make it better? There is more chemistry going on in Rodinol than you might expect, and it has nothing to do with Kirk's answer above about those derived from acetaminophen.

Kirk, you got an "A+" in Organic Chemistry this semester.

PE
 

gainer

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I like to think I know. I have been experimenting with more direct ways of getting the Rodinal results. If you add p-aminophenol (not the hydrochloride) to a solution of sodium or potassium hydroxide and a sulfite, you first get the solution of the PAP which is really the formation of the soluble sodium p-aminophenolate. When you use up the hydroxide, you get the precipitation of p-aminophenol. Aerial oxidation of a molecule of dissolved sodium p-aminophenolate produces a molecule of monosulfonate and a molecule of the hydroxide. The molecule of hydroxide can make the soluble aminophenolate out of a molecule of the precipitate, thus replenishing the Rodinal stock as long as the precipitate lasts. The sulfite is there to form the monosulfonate. There's not enough concentration possible to do much else.

This is going about the mixing of Rodinal in reverse order and with simpler ways of getting the active molecules together, but it helps to understand what goes on. At any rate, the result acts just like the last Rodinal I bought. If you mix Rodinal according to the recipes I have seen, you wind up with sodium or potassium chloride in the stock, but not in enough concentration to make any difference in use or results.

Anyway, that's my view of it.
 

Aggie

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sorry but I have not read this thread. I was in Vegas today and stopped at the only good camera store I could find. They have cases of Rodinal in the back. If you want some, I would suggest contacting them. Sergio at Casey's Camera on Tropicana.
 

Photo Engineer

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Patrick, it is not as simple as you portray.

Kirk is closer to the answer with dimer and polymerization kicked off by the alkali. In addition, there are other considerations that enter into the mix. The monosulfonate is colorless, the other byproducts are blue. So, you are missing his implications. Also, pAp does not undergo reactions exactly as hydroquinone does but is similar. The differences are expressed again in the coloration. HQ monosulfonate is rather colorless.

Also, the last sentence you posted above is not exactly correct. Close, but not a winner. Please rethink your comment.

I said to you once before, I would never try to design an airplane. Kirk and I are chemists. He is on the right track and most everyone is missing three essential factoids about this developer. Maybe more. I'm still studying the chemistry. It is fascinating (as Mr. Spock would say.).

PE
 

gainer

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In fact, Metol is another starting point for the same type of concentrate. It is very simple:
Water, 750 ml.
sodium sulfite,100 grams.
sodium hydroxide, 28.6 grams
Dissolve these, then add:
Metol, 63 grams.
Keep stirring until most of the precipitate dissolves. It should not all dissolve. Add water to make a liter. What remains undissolved is the protection against aerial oxidation of the stock solution and should be kept in the same container with the stock. HP5 Plus will develop in a 1+50 dilution in 8 minutes at 70 F.

Aerial oxidation of most if not all of the phenol based agents causes color changes. No mystery there. The change in color of Rodinal type stock solutions is not an indication of weakening untill after all the precipitate has been used. IMHO.

Ain't this fun?
 

Photo Engineer

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Aggie said:
sorry but I have not read this thread. I was in Vegas today and stopped at the only good camera store I could find. They have cases of Rodinal in the back. If you want some, I would suggest contacting them. Sergio at Casey's Camera on Tropicana.

Aggie, so glad to here there is a supply.

I'm bringing myself up to speed on this fascinating developer that has so many facets to it.

It is remarkable to read this thread, but even more remarkable to work with the chemistry and see what is taking place.

PE
 

Earl Dunbar

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I ordered some Rodinal from Freestyle; it was out of stock when I ordered, and they only listed the 4oz bottles. I got a notice Friday that it had shipped, so I'm stocked up for now. I'll be calibrating my films to Rodinal, buying more as I can and as I feel necessary.

Earl
 

df cardwell

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When we've got all the Rodinal for film... isn't it a splendid PAPER developer as well ?

1:20, and a few drops of 10% pot bromide as needed.

You betcha !
 
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Kirk Keyes

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Photo Engineer said:
He {me} is on the right track and most everyone is missing three essential factoids about this developer. Maybe more.

OK - I pulled out the big organic books and my brand new, personnal inscribed copy of "Modern Photographic Processing" by Grant Haist and here's what I come up with. (By the way, I thought we were trying to determine the source of the purple or blue color when making it up wrong from the Tylenol. I hope I'm on track now!)

Sorry if this gets a bit chemically for some people's tastes - it is sunny here and I should be outside, if not taking photos, at least mowing the lawn one last time for the year or bicycling...

Here's my take - starting with Gerald Koch's formulation and procedure:

Looking at that formula - one can see there is 0.687 mol of p-aminophenol and 0.97 mol of sulfite, a slight excess. I'm sure Spock would immediately see some thing interesting, it is a 2:3 ratio.

Adding a pinch of the potassium bisulfite to the water in solution one will remove most of the dissolved oxygen by reacting the sulfite that forms from the solution of the bisulfite, forming sulfate which is non-reactive.

Dissolving the p-aminophenol will free the HCl from it by ionization in solution. This leaves the pap in solution. It will react with some oxygen from the water/air interface (unless we protect the solution with a nitrogen bath). This oxidized form of pap is called quinoneimine - similar to quinone that forms when hydroquinone reacts with oxygen, but with the amine group on one side of the molecule, hence the "-imine" in the name. Note that a "pinch" of potassium bisulfite will not be enough to protect that much pap when it is going into solution.

The formation of the quinonimine also forms hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) as a byproduct (the oxygen pulls the hydrogen off the -OH (phenol) end of the pap). The H2O2 will react with some of the sulfite in solution too (like any oxygen) to make more sulfate ion and consume any excess sulfite.

So now once we have dissolved all the pap into the water, we should have water, pap, quinonimine with a pretty much equal amount of hydrogen peroxide, and some free chloride, sulfate, and potassium ions floating around. The lack of excess oxygen scavangers in solution will allow the quinonimine to react with the strong oxidizer hydrogen peroxide and this will form some hydroxyquinonimine. (Structure wise, this is a benzene ring with a "=O" (oxygen double bonded) at the 1-position, a -OH at the 2-position, and a -NH2 at the 4-position.) I suspect that the hydroxyquinonimine will polymerize with another hydroxyquinonimine to make a dimer - the simplist form of a polymer is when only two of the polymeric structures combine (hence one of PE's hints earlier), and I suspect it could even go on to polymerize into a multilinked compound.

Looking at hydroquinone, we can see that it can do this as well, going through the oxidation steps of hydroquinone <=> quinone <=> hydroxyquinone <=> polyhydroxyquinone. This polyhydroxyquinone is a member of the class of compounds called tannins and lignans, which are polyphenolic compounds. Some, like tannic acid can have a molecular wieght of around 2000 AMU. (Another class of compounds that I have experience analyzing as an inorganic chemist.)

So back to the p-aminophenol - when we get to the hydroxyquinonimine, that compound is an aldehyde. As I mentioned in the posts above, if these aldehydes make a dimer of a certain structure, then we can get the purple colored byproducts. Another example of the polymerization of aldehyde compounds can be seen with the simplest aldehyde - formaldehyde, H2C=O. It can polymerize into a compound called paraformaldehyde. It simply connects from one molecule of the formaldehyde to the next by breaking the aldehyde C=0 bond and then making series of [-O-C(H2)-O-C(H2)-O-C(H2)-O-] links. This linking is reversable with the paraformaldehyde and it can regenerate formaldhyde by simply reacting with water and hydrolyzing.

So now once we have dissolved all the pap into the water, we should have water, pap, quinonimine with some hydrogen peroxide, some hydroxyquinoneimine, and maybe some polyhydroxyquinonimine of various polymer lengths, and of course our free chloride, sulfate, and potassium ions floating around.

All this stuff must be going on before the potassium bisulfite is dissolved (in any significant amounts). Otherwise, we would not get the formation of the hydroxyquinonimine and any dimers or polymers of the hydroxyquinonimine. If we had lots of free sulfite in solution, then we would have the hydrogen peroxide that we released (when the quinonimine formed) turned into sulfate. The reaction from sulfite to sulfate pretty much goes in one direction, so any sulfate formed will stay as sulfate and not be converted back into sulfite at any point.

When the full amount of potassium bisulfite is dissolved into Solution 1, then we will get some of the quinonimine reacting with the free sulfite ions, SO3=, to form p-aminophenol monosulfonate. If we have a large excess of sulfate, then we can get a pap disulfonate to form. Again, we can see the same reactions happen with hydroquinone. (Hydroquinone + O2 <=> quinone, quinone + sulfite <=> quinone monosulfonate, quinone monosulfonate + sulfite <=> quinone disulfonate.) We don't have a large amount of sulfite ions to work with, so I suspect that we don't get a lot of the disulfonate forming in this formulation.

Notice that nowhere does the sodium hydroxide in the Rodinal come into play here, which is why the approach of dissolving the NaOH into solution before the pap is wrong. Also, to promote any polymerization of the pap, we need to dissolve it before the sulfite ions are released into the solution.

So now once we have dissolved all the pap and bisulfite into the water, we should have water, pap, quinonimine, some hydroxyquinoneimine, and maybe some polyhydroxyquinonimine of various polymer lengths, some p-aminophenol monosulfonate, some free sulfite, and of course our chloride, sulfate, and potassium ions floating around.

There is a race between the oxidation of the pap to form the quinonimine and related compounds and the formation of the monosulfonate at this point in the solution... Since the formation of the hydrogen peroxide would be pretty quickly consumed by the large excess of the sulfite in the solution at this point, this would drive the reaction into the formation of the p-aminophenol monosulfonate direction, especially since the sulfate formed from the reaction with the peroxide is non-reversable.

Also, since there is a slight excess of sulfite, that may drive the formation of the monsulfonate only. But remember, it is not a huge excess - only 50% more sulfite than pap.

Now, as Gerald pointed out, we add the hydroxide solution carefully so we do not overtitrate all the precipitated pap compounds we worked so hard to form. The hydroxide would pull the hydrogen off the phenol group (-OH) on the p-aminophenol monosulfonate as well as any unreacted pap since the -OH group is an organic acid. The sodium salt salt that forms would be very water soluble. This would allow us to make a very saturated solution that will have the maximum developer concentration possible.

Side note: the NaOH is a 50% w/w solution in Gerald's Solution #2. This is a commonly available, strong (and I think the strongest) solution of Sodium Hydroxide that is routinely commercially available. Maybe this was a benefit for Agfa in that they could buy it by the rail car and then pump it into the plant as needed...

PE - Did I happen to hit on the three essential factoids in your estimation?

1) Formation of beneficial polymerization of the pap oxidation byproducts (and not non-beneficial ones that form colored compounds which are unusable as developers.)
2) Maximum developer concentration possible for pap-based developers.
3) An absolute minimum of free sulfite in solution.

OK - now I got to go and mow the lawn...

Kirk - www.keyesphoto.com
 

Kirk Keyes

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Did I mention that none of this proposed chemistry would be going on if the hydroxide or the bisulfite or sulfite was dissolved first?

Kirk
 

Photo Engineer

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Kirk, nope, sorry. You got the obvious ones.

My factoids are not obvious like those, but everything you said was absolutely correct and to the point and very well done. Grant would be proud of that as well. I'll have to tell him next time I call him.

Your post brings up an essential part of mixing Rodinol as well. Think about that 'pinch' and the implications in the organic chain you elucidated for us. Think about alternatives.

Think also on this, related to my 'hidden factoids', the key words are are: D-76, Microdol and compensating developer. Send me an e-mail. No use boring everyone else with this beautiful organic chemistry. Don't you just love it? Oh, right, you are an anylytical chemist. Sorry.

PE
 

Earl Dunbar

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Photo Engineer said:
<snip> Don't you just love it? Oh, right, you are an anylytical chemist. Sorry.

PE
ROTFLMAO!!!

I loved organic, partly because I "got it", and partly because the prof was an excellent teacher. Make that the other way around, probably. My proudest moment was in one lecture session when I asked a question and the prof said, "We just don't know." Not only was I proud of myself, but my already high estimation of the prof shot up even more.

But that was so many years ago, and I haven't "used" it in so long, it's nearly totally foreign to me.

Anyway, thanks for the laugh.

Earl
 

gainer

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Kirk Keyes said:
Did I mention that none of this proposed chemistry would be going on if the hydroxide or the bisulfite or sulfite was dissolved first?

Kirk
No, but I am still confused about whether this chemistry must go on. All I can see that is lacking when you dissolve the hydroxide and sulfite first and use p-aminophenol instead of the hydrochloride is an insignificanr amount of sodium chloride. The net result, if you have less hydroxide than is necessary to convert all the p-aminophenol.HCl into sodium p-aminophenolate is a solution of sodium p-aminophenolate with a small amount of undissolved p-aminophenol, and that thinks it is Rodinal. For each molecule of the sodium paraminophenolate that is oxidized by oxygen in the presence of sulfite, a molecule of precipitated p-aminophenol is made soluble.

All I can tell you is that it works as if it were Rodinal. I haven't found the missing sodium chloriide to be missed.
 

Photo Engineer

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Earl, I'm enjoying it as well. There is a huge amount of chemistry going on here as in all B&W developers. Grant Haist and Mees and James try to explain it but it is largely ignored, as you sense, because it is organic chemsitry and 'we just don't understand'.

Wonderful in this day and age, isn't it?

But there is a lot we can improve on.

PE
 

df cardwell

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This is great, guys. Keep it up.
 

gainer

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Photo Engineer said:
Patrick, leave chemstry to chemists then.

PE
So, you are saying I'm wrong, that I do not have a developer that looks like Rodinal, smells like Rodinal, and acts like Rodinal? Or are you just saying that my reasons for believing so are wrong, therefore it cannot be Rodinal? I saw that error too many times in my 30 years with NASA. Theoretical aerodynamicists said certain experimental results could not be right because they did not agree with theory. Chemists have killed more people by mistakes than I ever will by making ersatz Rodinal.

I understand the reactions Kirk said are necessary. I do not understand how they produce a final result that is significantly different from mine. Further, I do not see the AGFA chemists carefully adding just the right amount of hydroxide solution to a large batch of Rodinal so as to leave some crystals suspended when with today's chemicals they could calculate just the right amount and a batch process attended by chemical dummies would do as well. You can see that an excess of p-aminophenol will do no harm, as it precipitates. The concentration of hydroxide determines the concentration of the p-aminophenolate that is possible. Again I say any amount greater than that which will combine with the available hydroxide is reserve against aerial oxidation and is in the form of a precipitate. It won't make any difference in developing activity if there is a great gob of precipitted p-aminophenol in the bottom of your storage bottle, so why not measure the amount of hydroxide corresponding to the amount of p-aminostuff you want in solution and add the p-aminostuff until no more will dissolve?

If I used the hydrochloride, I would recalculate the required amount of hydroxide and still mix the sulfite and hydroxide first. When I add the calculated amount of p-aminophenol, whether it be the free base or the hydrochloride, I still get a residual precipitate of p-aminophenol. If I use the hydrochloride, I must add enough hydroxide to convert the HCl to sodium or potassium chloride and water, and enough more to convert almost all of the p-aminophenol to the sodium or potassium salt, which is soluble.

I did find that I can make the concentration of p-aminophenol at least double the usually quoted value of 50 grams of the hydrochloride per liter. The sulfite only has to be sufficient to make the sulfonate with the available p-aminophenol. There's no use trying to dissolve enough in Rodinal to have any effect on grain.
 

Photo Engineer

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Patrick, simply put, chloride is both an antifoggant and a silver halide solvent. Balance between those two properties and the property of being a silver halide solvent along with sulfite being a silver halide solvent is criticial.

I am a chemist and this boggles me. It should give you pause in your work as well if it causes problems for experts. Please, please don't be so glib in your assertations. Things are not cut and dry.

PE
 

gainer

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Some years ago I wrote for Photo Techniques an article entitled "Salt to Taste." Sodium chloride as a restrainer requires huge concentrations compared to the bromide in order to make any difference either in base fog or in apparent grain. If the chloride liberated from the p-aminophenol.HCl made any difference in the fog or gradations it would be a simple matter to add it in whatever amounts were necessary. There is no more base fog resulting from my homebrew than from AGFA Rodinal.

Have you given thought to how much chloride there is in a liter of working strength Rodinal, even at 1+25? I'm not glib. I have always given a lot of thought to anything I say or write. I am an engineer. Anyone who knew me from my days at NASA would tell you so. I have worked on problems in many different scientific disciplines. That is what we did at NASA, and NACA before that. What was I glib about? Is it not true that the concentration of hydroxide determines how much of either p-aminophenol.HCl or the base will dissolve? Is it not true that the excess of p-aminophenol over that amount will be largely precipitated?

How many grams of sodium or potassium chloride would have to be in a liter of working solution to make a difference? How many grams of sodium or potassium sulfite? Can you see any way of getting that much of either ot both into a solution that is to be diluted 25 or 50 to 1?

If you contend that the concentrations of chloride and sulfite in Rodinal are critical, tell me how to determine how critical they are and I will tell you how to make them exactly that way without titrating almost to an end point without ever knowing just how close you are to that end point until you get beyond it. If you titrate the other way round, first setting the concentration of hydroxide and then finding the amount of p-aminophenol required to produce a precipitate, overshoot will do no harm. As for me, I am satisfied that what I have concocted satisfies the measurable criteria for Rodinal.
 

Photo Engineer

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Patrick, the interaction between sulfite and chloride is not a simple matter to just state as a fact. The antifoggant action betweeen chloride and an emulsion are in the same category. It is impossible to give the entire relationship in a complete manner when also considering the interactions possible. I merely bring them up.

I don't intend to disclose that information until I can confirm the relationships myself, but the matter is quite complex as Kirk has elucidated. It is clear that you have not considered the entire gamut of Rodinol solutions yourself Patrick.

PE
 

Gerald Koch

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Chloride ion has only a very weak action as a restrainer, at least 10-2 less than bromide ion. It is used in Microdol-type developers as a silver halide solvent in approximately a 3% concentration. The only formulas where I have seen it specifically used as a restrainer are for slow chloride contact papers.

The latest MSDS for Rodinal says that it is made from p-aminophenol base (CAS 123-30-8) and not from the hydrochloride (CAS 51-78-5). The hydrochloride salt is a bit less susceptable to aerial oxidation than the base which is why I suspect it was used in the past. The active principle in the developer is the p-aminophenolate ion, it really doesn't matter how it is formed or whether the solution contains chloride ion.

The MSDS also states that potassium bromide has been added (1-5%). This was not present in the original formulation.

The rather odd preparation of the developer makes perfect sense when one considers chemical manufacture a century ago. Potassium bisulfite was sold as a roughly 45% solution and sodium hydroxide as a 50% solution. Since the composition of both solutions was somewhat variable a specific amount of the sodium hydroxide solution could not be specified. Fortunately, the existence or non-existence of a precipitate of p-aminophenol base can act as an indicator to the completeness of the reaction to generate the phenolate.
 

avandesande

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And it is still done this way today. Chemical industry hates handling solids unless they have to, so usually caustic is used in a water solution when possible. Both the solution and solid absorbs carbon dioxide from the air so you can never be sure exactly what you are getting, aside from titration.


 

Photo Engineer

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Gerald, please note the fact that bromide was added to Rodinol when they stopped using the hydrochloride salt of the pAp.

This event is not insignificant IMHO.

PE
 
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