Rollei Retro 80s mottled texture. Backing paper?

fs999 said:

Edit : Ok I found a way to see the page with the files : https://web.archive.org/web/20170604125537/http://www.maco-photo.de/main.php?kat=323

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I tried that long ago and the links to the most interesting data sheets etc. are all dead.

The Internet Archive often is referred to as ideal source, but in many instances their digging went not deep enough concerning linkages or pages are not archived for other reasons. Also some manufacturers banned crawling so their pages form blind spots from the start.

Henning Serger said:

Hello Helge,



that is the easiest thing to recognize: Each 120 manufacturer has his own, very specific/individual 120 confectioning/converting. Spools, backing paper, lettering, end seals, additional features (especially Fujifilms superior easy loading system, easy end seal and unique barcode system) are all very different.
Therefore you can easily see whether a 120 film is converted by Kodak, Ilford, Fujifilm, Foma, ADOX or Shanghai.



ADOX is working on generally bringing 120 format back, and then in improved quality. I've talked to their engineers at my last factory visit there.
When they will have finished their work (which will still take some time), also HR-50 and SCALA 50 will be available in 120.



1) The Wikipedia list has some mistakes: Aviphot Pan 400 is long gone. Last coating run was in 2008. In 2013 the last film of it left Agfa and Agfa listed it on their homepage as discontinued. And some time later also this discontinuation notice vanished.
2) Yes ISO 200/24° is too optimistic if you want real shadow detail and refer to the ISO norm. Agfa's aerial films are measured at Zone III instead of Zone I for light sensitivity/speed. So if you want sufficient shadow detail, you have to give them about two stops more light.

Best regards,
Henning

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Thank you Henning. Always a pleasure when you drop by the forum.

Regarding Rollei Infrared 400 (supposedly done by Ilford), I ran a roll through my Ikonta yesterday and surprisingly it doesn't appear very fast. Not as fast as Rollei Retro 400s at all. Only a three or four frames came out usable because I had been liberal with exposure and used bulb fill.
It's not impossible that I did something wrong in development, but I doubt it. Most of the negative are mostly thing with a hint of flat. Hinting at underexposure and perhaps the Massiv Dev recipe is wrong or out of date, giving it too little time.

I saw this curve in another thread on here:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...heliopan-filter-for-rollei-ir-400-iso.118567/

The guy posting it questions it's validity, but still it seems there is something to it.
Apparently it originates from Digital Truth. But I can't seem to find it in their collection of articles on IR film, which are now of varying quality anyway: https://www.digitaltruth.com/articles.php

The curve of IR 400 and R400s seems to mirror each other closely in the chart, only with significantly slower speed.

It's not just my sentiment and the above image, but also something that pops up again in other threads and articles on the film, when you do a search. IE. people being surprised at the slowness of the film.

Strange to have a film that is supposedly markedly slower at IR than the others in the roster, and then call it Infrared specifically.

Is Infrared 400 really Retro 400s, or something else?

It does in fact seem slower than even Retro 80s or HR-50.
I'd probably consider rating it EV 6 - 10 if I shoot it again.

Tremendously good news that HR-50 is going to be available in 120!
Best IR film on the market and, best QC and packing.

And about the confectioning characteristic of each manufacturer, I've been looking for those too... And I find it's not so clear.
Infrared 400 for instance, doesn't at all look like Ilfords usual packing job, even if they are said to be the confectioner.

Fujis loading system I'm not too enamoured with. Having the paper leader engage with the spool in that hard way is a terrible idea for a number of reasons.
I can see how I might help beginners though.
The sticker end seal I can take or leave really.

Helge said:

Thank you Henning. Always a pleasure when you drop by the forum.

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You're welcome.

Helge said:

The curve of IR 400 and R400s seems to mirror each other closely in the chart, only with significantly slower speed.
............
Is Infrared 400 really Retro 400s, or something else?

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Superpan 200, Retro 400S and Infrared are all the same film: Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.
As explained here on photrio by several experts from the industry many times (and not only by me) Aviphot Pan 400 is dead for many years. Last coating run was in 2008.
And therefore here you have the only valid data sheet for SP200, Retro 400S, Infrared:
https://www.agfa.com/specialty-products/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2017/06/AVIPHOT-PAN-200.pdf

Forget all other "data sheets", especially those from Maco. They are often heavily manipulated for marketing reasons.
Maco is a 100% distribution company only. They don't have any technical staff, no photographers, no test experts, no chemists, no engineers, and no own production capabilities.

Helge said:

And about the confectioning characteristic of each manufacturer, I've been looking for those too... And I find it's not so clear.
Infrared 400 for instance, doesn't at all look like Ilfords usual packing job, even if they are said to be the confectioner.

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The last Rollei Infrared I have tested was definitely converted/finished by Ilford. It was 1:1 Ilford's converting technique/style and materials.
Does your film look like being converted by Foma? Maybe lately Maco switched to Foma. They are often switching their suppliers, without any information to customers when product characteristics have changed.

Helge said:

Fujis loading system I'm not too enamoured with. Having the paper leader engage with the spool in that hard way is a terrible idea for a number of reasons.
I can see how I might help beginners though.
The sticker end seal I can take or leave really.

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I have to disagree here. The hook in the spool works perfectly, and the end seal is the best in business, absolutely reliable and sealing the film firmly. I have also never had any problems at all with 120 film from Fuji: No mottling at all, no visible/transparent numbers etc. Perfect 120 QC.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger said:

You're welcome.



Superpan 200, Retro 400S and Infrared are all the same film: Agfa Aviphot Pan 200.
As explained here on photrio by several experts from the industry many times (and not only by me) Aviphot Pan 400 is dead for many years. Last coating run was in 2008.
And therefore here you have the only valid data sheet for SP200, Retro 400S, Infrared:
https://www.agfa.com/specialty-products/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2017/06/AVIPHOT-PAN-200.pdf

Forget all other "data sheets", especially those from Maco. They are often heavily manipulated for marketing reasons.
Maco is a 100% distribution company only. They don't have any technical staff, no photographers, no test experts, no chemists, no engineers, and no own production capabilities.



The last Rollei Infrared I have tested was definitely converted/finished by Ilford. It was 1:1 Ilford's converting technique/style and materials.
Does your film look like being converted by Foma? Maybe lately Maco switched to Foma. They are often switching their suppliers, without any information to customers when product characteristics have changed.



I have to disagree here. The hook in the spool works perfectly, and the end seal is the best in business, absolutely reliable and sealing the film firmly. I have also never had any problems at all with 120 film from Fuji: No mottling at all, no visible/transparent numbers etc. Perfect 120 QC.

Best regards,
Henning

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Well I couldn't spot any stylistic difference from the rolls that was said to be rolled by Foma and the "Infrared".
I know about Maco only being a distributor. As a redistribution company they are/have to be opportunistic (since they lack the ability to create).
There could be a chance that some unknown or leftover emulsion or pancake was converted into IR400, as some kind of perverse joke/thrifty move to find a use for it.

The exposure I gave for IR400 (on a tested and reliable Syncro Compur) would have been enough for Retro 80s. Still blank shadows on most frames.

Helge said:

I know about Maco only being distribution. As a redistribution company they are/have to be opportunistic (since they lack the ability to create).

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The are not only a redistributor, but also a manufacturer in that they have others make products for them not available as such from a film-manufacturer directly. (For instance films made by Agfa and Filmotec.)

AgX said:

The are not only a redistributor, but also a manufacturer

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They are much more.... They do use alternative facts (like a former US president) and distribute science fiction literature instead of real datasheets.

If you know what is in the box , then some of their products are excellent.

Henning Serger said:

Maco is a 100% distribution company only. They don't have any technical staff, no photographers, no test experts, no chemists, no engineers, and no own production capabilities.

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Hello, Henning. I'm wondering if you know from where Maco had there Maco Cube and later Rollei R3. It was an interesting film.

These films (traffic survailance films) had been produced by Filmotec GmbH (now part of the 'Jake Seal' Empire)
http://www.filmotec.de/

Further members of the Jake Seal Empire' are Inoviscoat (Spinoff of the former Agfa Leverkusen), the ARRI Film post production and the ORWO Studios and ... and ...

Just chiming in to this old thread to report the issue still persists with Rollei Retro 80S

I just developed 4 rolls and all have the mottling + backing paper numbers and circles are imprinted on the negatives..

I wish you could just buy Agfa Aviphot Pan 80 in 70mm and roll your own rolls..

Orange555 said:

Just chiming in to this old thread to report the issue still persists with Rollei Retro 80S

I just developed 4 rolls and all have the mottling + backing paper numbers and circles are imprinted on the negatives..

I wish you could just buy Agfa Aviphot Pan 80 in 70mm and roll your own rolls..

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You can use Rollei RPX 25. It is the same film but spooled by Ilford not Foma...

fs999 said:

You can use Rollei RPX 25. It is the same film but spooled by Ilford not Foma...

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Oh I was under the impression they were all respooled by Harman / Ilford. I suppose the edge markings on rollei 80s does look like FOMA markings

fs999 said:

You can use Rollei RPX 25. It is the same film but spooled by Ilford not Foma...

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Last time I used RPX25 in 120, they came in Ilford style backing paper but STILL had major mottling issue. I'd assume the Aviphot emulsion just don't work well with backing papers

Perhaps not entirely relevant to this conversation, but I have been using Rollei Retro 400S in 120 for the past 3 years with zero problems. Not sure who packages it - whoever does it, it's doing an excellent job IME.

I recently had horrific mottling on a roll of RPX25 too. I was really bummed as there were one or two nice shots on there.

I am now only buying Ilford's own films in 120, as they are the only ones I have found 100% reliable in the past 3 years. Most others are highly prone to the backing paper mottling issue. Of course, all bets are off for ANY film if 1) you store it incorrectly (too warm for an extended period) or 2) allow it to go past its expiration date. Keeping film refrigerated for long term storage helps prevent the backing paper issue, but I do not store any 120 film for more than a year past its expiration date in the fridge. You gotta use these films up or you risk these issues.

retina_restoration said:

I am now only buying Ilford's own films in 120, as they are the only ones I have found 100% reliable in the past 3 years...

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Well, this isn't 100% true, but any problems are only likely to occur under specific conditions. I had an FP4+ roll with mottling, which was well within date. This occurred after it was loaded for an extended period in the camera before being finished. It is a known issue, at least for specific lot numbers of some films, FP4+ being one of them.

Anon Ymous said:

Well, this isn't 100% true, but any problems are only likely to occur under specific conditions. I had an FP4+ roll with mottling, which was well within date. This occurred after it was loaded for an extended period in the camera before being finished. It is a known issue, at least for specific lot numbers of some films, FP4+ being one of them.

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As I said in my post - once you deviate from ideal conditions, ANY 120 roll film is subject to compromise. That includes leaving a roll in the camera for months before finishing and developing it.

I have had this happen to many of my retro 400 80 superpan rpx25 rolls and I think I figured out what was causing MY issues. I tried an experiment, shot 2 120 rolls of the same scene, developed at the same time and had 1 with molting and 1 without. the bad roll, I placed in the freezer for 3 months before shooting it. when it was time to shoot I took it out 2 days before and let it come to room temp. the other roll was just kept as room temp the entire time. so I have a feeling that there is a moisture issue with the baking paper. This was just a simple experiment that I ran and in no means does this mean that this is the cause of your problems. but all the frozen rolls I have used had the issue FOR ME and the room temp ones, even years old, did not. the results were the same when the film was developed as a negative and when reversal processed, which these films give GREAT results when done a slides.

Again, this was just my results.

john