Sacramento State offers a BFA in Photography

[BradS]

California State University, Sacramento (AKA Sac State) offers a BFA in Photography
...and the program requires two courses (9 units) in "Darkroom Photography"

https://catalog.csus.edu/colleges/arts-letters/design/photography/

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Very interesting. I think they should include some business courses.

 

[MattKing]

Very interesting. I think they should include some business courses.

For a Bachelor degree in Fine Arts?!?!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Why not? A few course on simple accounting, how to set up a small business, would be helpful for the photographer who can't find a job and needs to do something on their own like wedding photography.

 

[BradS]

I've no interest in business but there is, of course, nothing to prevent one from taking classes in business or entrepreneurship if one so desires.

I'm stoked that they have a darkroom and offer classes in traditional photography.

 

[MattKing]

Why not? A few course on simple accounting, how to set up a small business, would be helpful for the photographer who can't find a job and needs to do something on their own like wedding photography.

It isn't a trade school. People don't enroll in a Fine Arts program to learn how to do business as a photographer.

 

[MattKing]

Political post deleted.
I'd report it and have some other moderator attend to the deletion if one was handy.

 

[madNbad]

Learning to be a better artist in any media is about personal growth. Kudos to Sacramento State for offering this course.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

For a Bachelor degree in Fine Arts?!?!

Yes, 100%. I have a BFA, and graduated from Indiana University 24 yrs ago with no clue how to earn a living. It took years to learn how to get clients, run a business, etc. This is something that absolutely needs to be taught in art schools. Most art students come from middle class backgrounds, meaning that mommy and daddy cannot buy them a life; they have to earn a living.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

It isn't a trade school. People don't enroll in a Fine Arts program to learn how to do business as a photographer.

Yeah, they do. Really. No one enrolls in an art program without hoping to make a living from it, and that's true not only for photographers but for painters, sculptors, etc. A few rich kids who can live off their families' money might not care about making a living, but I can guarantee you that 99% of students today view college as a trade school and find themselves disappointed when they cannot make a living after they graduate (I mean all students, not just art students). There are majors like philosophy with no real world economic prospects, but art is NOT one of them. There's no reason for artists to starve if they're talented and willing to work hard, but like anyone else, they need to be taught how to make a living with their talent.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

California State University, Sacramento (AKA Sac State) offers a BFA in Photography
...and the program requires two courses (9 units) in "Darkroom Photography"

https://catalog.csus.edu/colleges/arts-letters/design/photography/

A lot of state universities have BFA programs and most of them offer photography as a major.

 

[foc]

There's no reason for artists to starve if they're talented and willing to work hard, but like anyone else, they need to be taught how to make a living with their talent.

+1

 

[CMoore]

Yeah, they do. Really. No one enrolls in an art program without hoping to make a living from it, and that's true not only for photographers but for painters, sculptors, etc. A few rich kids who can live off their families' money might not care about making a living, but I can guarantee you that 99% of students today view college as a trade school and find themselves disappointed when they cannot make a living after they graduate (I mean all students, not just art students). There are majors like philosophy with no real world economic prospects, but art is NOT one of them. There's no reason for artists to starve if they're talented and willing to work hard, but like anyone else, they need to be taught how to make a living with their talent.

If you are pursuing 'art' as a profession, i would argue that a business class is WAY more important for an artist than a tradesman.
Sticking with the basics -
Carpenter
Electrician
Painter
Plumber.

When you finish your apprenticeship, you go to work for a contractor in you field.
Nobody gets out of trade school and works for themselves.
I would think most artists will be self employed.?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Yeah, they do. Really. No one enrolls in an art program without hoping to make a living from it, and that's true not only for photographers but for painters, sculptors, etc. A few rich kids who can live off their families' money might not care about making a living, but I can guarantee you that 99% of students today view college as a trade school and find themselves disappointed when they cannot make a living after they graduate (I mean all students, not just art students). There are majors like philosophy with no real world economic prospects, but art is NOT one of them. There's no reason for artists to starve if they're talented and willing to work hard, but like anyone else, they need to be taught how to make a living with their talent.

I explained in my deleted post that schools don't want to include business courses because artists aren;t interested in business and schools are more interested in making money from tuition rather than helping artists get real careers. No business courses go to the heart of getting an MFA without one. It's critical to this discussion.

 

[koraks]

Very interesting. I think they should include some business courses.

In my country, it's becoming more customary to have some kind of business-related courses in arts programs. It's quite limited and I can sort of see why. Firstly, there's the argument that if you go for an arts degree, you've decided not to go for a business degree. In business school, we don't teach art, or physics, or chemistry, although any of those might be useful somehow later in one's career. There's always the choice to what extent you're going to include content in the curriculum that's not central to the topic, and the decision is generally to keep things focused.

That's not a matter of making money from attracting students; there's no real argument why students would not be attracted, or less so, if there would be one or two business topics in a curriculum. It probably has to do more with lack of trust with faculty and administrators that it will be actually useful - and if it is deemed useful, there's the challenge of tailoring such content to this particular audience, attracting suitable lecturers for it, etc. It's quite challenging to get this off the ground in a sensible way. For instance, offering an accounting course to arts students is virtually guaranteed to be a massive failure. It's the same as the mainframe programming courses that were offered to students in e.g. linguistics back in the late 1960s (yes, they actually did that - and yes, it was a massive failure, obviously!) Sure, there are ways to make it (sort of) work, but it's a lot more challenging than taking Accounting 101 from the first semester of Business Administration and plugging it into the second year of a BFA. There's a lot more I could say about it, but these are the first things that pop up with me based on my experience teaching and designing courses in higher education.

In principle though, there's definitely merit to your idea. But there's also merit to the idea of offering these students courses from the domains of Information Management, Philosophy, Linguistics, Physics and a host of bordering fields. You can't do all of that, obviously.

 

[MattKing]

In case you hadn't noticed, the Studio Lighting course that forms part of that program does deal with some business issues.
More generally though, it makes no sense for a Fine Arts faculty to be the source of business information. If they have students who are seeking to make a business from what they learn, the department should have resources that coordinate with the business programs at the school, and be set up to advise and refer the students there.
The last place I would go to for business advice is a Fine Arts (or Physics, or Education, or Geography, or Sociology ...) academic, degree granting program.
It is a different question if the program is a vocational program.

 

[Don_ih]

it's a lot more challenging than taking Accounting 101 from the first semester of Business Administration and plugging it into the second year of a BFA.

Instead of a course that's meant to be an introduction to a particular aspect of business, it would make more sense to offer a series of workshops tailored to operating a small business based around some art practice. That could introduce those students that were interested to what sorts of things they can expect and what sorts of things they must do. And, of course, that also would be difficult to staff. But various professional artists could be approached to lead relevant discussions. But that would all be best left informal and not a degree requirement.
Offer wine and cheese, though, and attendance would bloom.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

In my country, it's becoming more customary to have some kind of business-related courses in arts programs. It's quite limited and I can sort of see why. Firstly, there's the argument that if you go for an arts degree, you've decided not to go for a business degree. In business school, we don't teach art, or physics, or chemistry, although any of those might be useful somehow later in one's career. There's always the choice to what extent you're going to include content in the curriculum that's not central to the topic, and the decision is generally to keep things focused.

That's not a matter of making money from attracting students; there's no real argument why students would not be attracted, or less so, if there would be one or two business topics in a curriculum. It probably has to do more with lack of trust with faculty and administrators that it will be actually useful - and if it is deemed useful, there's the challenge of tailoring such content to this particular audience, attracting suitable lecturers for it, etc. It's quite challenging to get this off the ground in a sensible way. For instance, offering an accounting course to arts students is virtually guaranteed to be a massive failure. It's the same as the mainframe programming courses that were offered to students in e.g. linguistics back in the late 1960s (yes, they actually did that - and yes, it was a massive failure, obviously!) Sure, there are ways to make it (sort of) work, but it's a lot more challenging than taking Accounting 101 from the first semester of Business Administration and plugging it into the second year of a BFA. There's a lot more I could say about it, but these are the first things that pop up with me based on my experience teaching and designing courses in higher education.

In principle though, there's definitely merit to your idea. But there's also merit to the idea of offering these students courses from the domains of Information Management, Philosophy, Linguistics, Physics and a host of bordering fields. You can't do all of that, obviously.

Artists and young people have dreamy ideas. There's nothing wrong with that and we expect that of them. However, with photography jobs disappearing as quick as the morning dew in a hot desert, it is important that parents, administrators, and those who provide student loans assure that these people are prepared to get jobs when they get out. Certainly the taxpayers who loan this money have a right to be repaid. This is not political. This is economics. Also, young people do not think that they're going to have to pay this money back. Spending tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on tuition upkeep board food Transportation Etc, has to be paid back. They need to get a job. They need to have courses that will aid them in that. As adults, it's not appropriate for us to stick our heads in the sand like young people often do. We should insist, especially because these state colleges are taxpayer funded, that they prepare their students for the real world. This isn't a private university.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

In case you hadn't noticed, the Studio Lighting course that forms part of that program does deal with some business issues.
More generally though, it makes no sense for a Fine Arts faculty to be the source of business information. If they have students who are seeking to make a business from what they learn, the department should have resources that coordinate with the business programs at the school, and be set up to advise and refer the students there.
The last place I would go to for business advice is a Fine Arts (or Physics, or Education, or Geography, or Sociology ...) academic, degree granting program.
It is a different question if the program is a vocational program.

Coordinating the art courses with business courses from an associate division is perfectly acceptable. I agree with you.

 

[Don_ih]

We should insist, especially because these state colleges are taxpayer funded, that they prepare their students for the real world.

I think what Koraks was saying, though, is that you can force it on the students but it likely won't work. You'll end up with a majority of students pushing their way through coursework to get a passing grade, to retain nothing.

 

[BradS]

This is bullshit and a red herring. None of the majors in science or engineering require any courses in business either.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I think what Koraks was saying, though, is that you can force it on the students but it likely won't work. You'll end up with a majority of students pushing their way through coursework to get a passing grade, to retain nothing.

Just because there will be people who will ignore the help doesn't mean we should not provide it.

 

[Don_ih]

None of the majors in science or engineering require any courses in business either.

And pretty much all of those people get hired by someone else when they graduate.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

This is bullshit and a red herring. None of the majors in science or engineering require any courses in business either.

There are loads of jobs you can get in engineering and science when you graduate. Not so with photography.

 

[BradS]

Business courses are not required but they are certainly available. Again, nothing prevents any art major or any other student from taking business courses if they want to .