Self winding cameras and bulk loaded film.

elchinosanz · Jan 2, 2016

Hello,

I'm giving bulk loading a try and am wondering about how self-winding cameras like my Contax G1 know when to stop advancing to the next frame at the end of the roll. Is there some sort of tension sensor or do I need to watch the counter and press the rewind button?

Another example would be my Canon Rebel G which winds the whole roll in the begining and winds the film back into the canister as one shoots.

Thanks in advance for any replies!

Ricardo Miranda · Jan 2, 2016

You shouldn't have a problem with any cassette you use.
Just make sure the end film is really attached to the spool.
Do you have a bulk loader and re-usable cassettes?
You can get empty cassettes from any minilab. They're actually not entirely empty, they leave a piece of film out and you can use it to attach the new film.

Yes, it is a tension sensor. It is normally called auto-rewind by most manufacturers.
Read the manuals for your cameras to ensure you enter the correct ISO if you don't have reusable cassettes with the correct DX code for your new bulk film.

elchinosanz · Jan 2, 2016

Ricardo Miranda said:
You shouldn't have a problem with any cassette you use.
Just make sure the end film is really attached to the spool.
Do you have a bulk loader and re-usable cassettes?
You can get empty cassettes from any minilab. They're actually not entirely empty, they leave a piece of film out and you can use it to attach the new film.

Yes, it is a tension sensor. It is normally called auto-rewind by most manufacturers.
Read the manuals for your cameras to ensure you enter the correct ISO if you don't have reusable cassettes with the correct DX code for your new bulk film.

Thank you very much and yes! I have the reusable cassettes and bulk loader.

alanrockwood · Jan 2, 2016

Regarding Canon Rebels, my experience is that in the initial wind they will stop at the end of the film or at 36 exposures, whichever comes first, so there is no need to try to load extra shots onto a roll.

By the way, I like the Canon Rebel way of handling film because I would much rather know how many shots are left in a roll than how many shots I have used. Also, if the camera back is opened by accident it won't ruin the frames that have already been exposed. I wonder why all cameras don't use this marvelous method.

AgX · Jan 2, 2016

Some consumer camearas (eg. from the Agfa Optima Sensor family) transported the classic way, but got a veiled take-up compartment.

trythis · Jan 2, 2016

The canon system us also good if your bulk loads have the film closest to the cassette exposed from daylight bulk loading. I am always getting a half dark frame in my Nikons

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tokam · Jan 2, 2016

I have been bulk loading for over 30 years using both plastic and metal cassettes. My favourite metal cassettes being a collection of Ilford cans from the '80s.

I recently experienced problems with the plastics cassettes when used in a Minolta Dynax 7. Two films loaded to 24 exposures stopped advancing about halfway during shooting. The only remedy was to rewind the films, (leave leader out), and reload film and advance to 1 frame past the point where the film jammed. I could then shoot to the end of the film successfully.

Jammed may be too strong a term for this problem. I think there was a tight spot where something in the plastic cassette was binding but it was enough to trigger the 'end of roll' sensor in the Minolta.

I have used plastic cassettes in a T90 and several Canon A series bodies with winders attached without any problems. Even with 36 frame loads. In manual wind cameras I have never noticed any binding with the plastic cans. I suspect that the Minolta is more sensitive than other cameras. It's a bit of a pain though as I will now have to keep a close eye on any films I load to the Minolta.

I have not tried recycled cassettes from mini labs as I was never too keen on splicing the bulk film onto the short length of film that is protruding from the cassette.

You will have to experiment with your Contax to see how it responds to various cassette types and how many frames you can load to the cassette.

RSalles · Jan 2, 2016

Hi,

On my Contax RX there is a "pin-pin" and a gear sound at the end of the film, the counter reset to zero and blinks. I suppose the tension on the film starts the process. After this I have to reload the film myself with the built-in motor. This Contax model hasn't the auto-reload feature - as far as I can tell. I find very useful the feature that you can set the rewind completely or let a pair of inches out of the spool - it happens to be more easy to work with the film that way to load on the development reels, doesn't need a film picker - and it can be useful if one intend to change negatives in the middle of the film: just reload the film, put another one and latter advance the previous film with a lens cap till where it was.

Xmas · Jan 3, 2016

Using cassettes from mini labs is practical even if your camera does not need the ISO coding.

You do need to be careful butting the cassette film with the bulk film and sticking pressure sensitive tape to both sides of film.

I use very thin packing tape anyway as the cine cam film I employ is marginal at 36 frames in some cassettes.

blockend · Jan 3, 2016

tokam said:
I have used plastic cassettes in a T90 and several Canon A series bodies with winders attached without any problems. Even with 36 frame loads. In manual wind cameras I have never noticed any binding with the plastic cans. I suspect that the Minolta is more sensitive than other cameras. It's a bit of a pain though as I will now have to keep a close eye on any films I load to the Minolta.

I've experienced problems with modern cameras, including the T90, and plastic reloadable cassettes. I think the film chambers of autoload SLRs are less tolerant than manual cameras. Even some preloaded film cassettes which had slightly distorted (raised) light traps, wouldn't work in the T90 or Canon Rebel, but had no problem in Nikkormats or A-Series Canons.

I also found plastic reloadable cassettes were scratching film more than re-using film manufacturer's cassettes, so I've abandoned the plastic ones. Some cameras are sensitive to over-loading a cassette, older cameras much less so and I've had 42 frames on a roll (a full glassine negative sheet) without any problem.

AgX · Jan 3, 2016

Have you an idea where the problem with the T90 might be in detail?
How does the problem show?
What brand of plastic cassettes dou you use? (There are at least ones from AP and ones (likely designated "made in Germany") from Kaiser.)

tokam · Jan 3, 2016

The only marking on the plastic cassettes I use is the number '6' moulded into the end of the cassette.

Before I use these again in the Dynax 7 I will make sure that the film is wound reasonably tight in the cassette before placing into the camera's film chamber. Much the same as I would do with an older camera with a manual rewind crank before closing the camera back. It may be excessive looseness of the film in the cassette that is causing some friction against the inside of the cassette walls. I don't think it is a problem between the film spool and the cassette housing.

ValoPeikko · Jan 3, 2016

One potential issue I've encountered few times, is the film being ripped off the spool. After couple of these I've started to tape the film very very securely.

adknrsst · Jan 5, 2016

One thing I do know is that trying to be overly smart about reloading ordinary film cans by only sellotaping one side of the film joint, (say) to make it wind into the cartridge a bit smoother, may result in an urgent need for a dark bag after frame 35. And some sticky stuff on your shutter or backplate if it's really bad. Not just on a motorized beast like the F5 (it sounds so gentle on the outside...), but also any body where the wind lever is geared for a short throw. Better safe than sorry -- that being said, with two pieces of sellotape I've been fine all around

As an aside, and I wasn't able to google this from apug's forum archive, how low a temperature does one need to seriously start worrying about modern film becoming brittle in terms of the motor rewind? It's going to hit 20 below zero (centigrade) over the weekend, and I'm quite itching to catch that cloudless early-morning light off the swirling snow.

Sirius Glass · Jan 5, 2016

-20°C is a bit nippy. The problem that I noticed is not the film getting brittle but the static electric discharge across the film if the film is advanced too quickly. It looks like lightning across the negative [and print] or slide.

ValoPeikko · Jan 6, 2016

These days I use mainly Rollei Retro 400s and 80s, so I don't worry about freezing (that polyester base is crazy strong). Reason to use that film is mainly due to the fact that it suites my vision. Ability to with stand crazy weather is a nice bonus.

With ordinary film, like TRI-X, I had issues when temp is under -15 and there's strong wind (and the entire camera is pretty much frozen solid). There were cracks in emulsion and at times I had the film tear inside camera. Then again in -20 and way beyond you should only be using a camera that can really take the freezing, most cameras can't. Simply because their lubricants freeze. Simple mechanical beasts with out complex gearing are good I bet there's lubricants that don't freeze in any humane conditions (like above -45) but I have no idea if those are used in any cameras. Then again, easy solution is to have your camera under your coat until you use it. Of course this subjects your self to the cold elements which can be problematic if the wind is crazy, there's powdered snow in the air and temperatures are extreme.

AgX · Jan 6, 2016

ValoPeikko said:
With ordinary film, like TRI-X, I had issues when temp is under -15 and there's strong wind (and the entire camera is pretty much frozen solid).

Wind does not alter the final temperature of things, but only reduces time to get things to adopt air temperature.

(You may not meant it this way, but people often get this wrong.)

AgX · Jan 6, 2016

QUOTE=ValoPeikko;1953832275][Below -15°c] there were cracks in emulsion and at times I had the film tear inside camera.[/QUOTE]

That emulsion thing is very interesting! (Here temperature hardly ever gets below -15°C.)

I cannot remember ever reading about cracked emulsion here at Apug nor anywhere else. Though even Kodak warns about that.
Well, as you indicated reason may be that the cameras broke down before the film was harmed.

Xmas · Jan 6, 2016

AgX said:
That is very interesting! (Here temperature hardly every gets below -15°C.)

I cannot remember ever reading about cracked emulsion here at Apug nor anywhere else. Though even Kodak warns about that.
Well, as you indicated reason may be that the cameras broke down before the film was harmed.

Leica user M manuals M4 and on have a how to load film for both cold and normal temperatures!
It is easy to tear sprocket holes without being an Olympic weightlifter at normal temperatures.
Eg if you forget you are at frame 36, 37, or 38.

AgX · Jan 6, 2016

I too ripped perforations at 20°C. Many used cameras got morsels of film inside.

I posted on that cracked emulsion.

ValoPeikko · Jan 6, 2016

AgX said:
Wind does not alter the final temperature of things, but only reduces time to get things to adopt air temperature.

(You may not meant it this way, but people often get this wrong.)

Yes I know, wind does affect the speed of temperature change by a huge margin though. Specially in temperature extremes. Most are wise enough to keep their camera in warmth of their jacket while out in the cold. But it doesn't take too long on a tripod for it to become frozen if there's cold and gale winds.

Actually in my experience, it seems like digital cameras can cope with cold better then film. Of course they freeze as well in the end. But they have smaller amount of mechanically moving parts to become frozen.

Sirius Glass · Jan 6, 2016

AgX said:
Wind does not alter the final temperature of things, but only reduces time to get things to adopt air temperature.

(You may not meant it this way, but people often get this wrong.)

A cold dry wild will raise the static electricity that can then discharge across the film if you wind the film too quickly.

AgX · Jan 6, 2016

ValoPeikko said:
There were cracks in emulsion and at times I had the film tear inside camera.

Did you have "just" the emulsion cracking?
Or the emulsion cracking due to a cracked (Acetate) base?

Xmas · Jan 6, 2016

AgX said:
I too ripped perforations at 20°C. Many used cameras got morsels of film inside.

I posted on that cracked emulsion.

If the base misbehaves the emulsion may be worse or as bad.
I get emulsion damage at 20c without any exposure from cold storage, although it looks like manufacture.

Sirius Glass · Jan 6, 2016

I have not had cold temperatures crack the emulsion not film breakage, but I have had static discharge and torn sprocket holes.

Self winding cameras and bulk loaded film.

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