Slide with Harman Phoenix 200

brbo · Friday at 2:22 AM

ChrisGalway said:
The only positive (excuse the pun) news is that when they finally make a decent version of Phoenix, it might only need fairly minor further development to make a transparency film to rival Provia 100f. Wishful thinking perhaps but why not dream?

Yes, wishful thinking I'm afraid. The more they improve Phoenix to be a better C-41 film the less suitable it will be as a reversal film.

ChrisGalway · Friday at 3:38 AM

brbo said:
Yes, wishful thinking I'm afraid. The more they improve Phoenix to be a better C-41 film the less suitable it will be as a reversal film.

Why's that?

koraks · Friday at 4:26 AM

ChrisGalway said:
Why's that?

Steps towards maturity would involve adding masking and also taming gamma. Especially the former will be an impediment to alternative use as a slide film. The latter may also have implications for e.g. dmax.

ChrisGalway · Friday at 4:28 AM

Ah, I see now! Thanks.

lamerko · Friday at 8:13 AM

I suppose that the realization of an effective mask is a very complicated thing. At the same time, adding a colloidal layer, present in reversible films, should not be very complicated. Of course, this alone will not produce a real slide film, but I see no reason to start in two directions...

koraks · Friday at 8:50 AM

lamerko said:
At the same time, adding a colloidal layer, present in reversible films, should not be very complicated.

Why would they do this, though? The yellow coloration to the first wash suggests (as per interpretation of @Lachlan Young earlier on this forum) that Harman leverages a dye-based yellow filter system, which eliminates the necessity of a Cary Lea silver filter layer. I do agree that it's counterintuitive that Harman at this junction would attempt to make a positive film based on Phoenix, although selling it perhaps with a complementary chemistry kit as such might be in line with their existing multi-purpose marketing strategy.

Lachlan Young · Friday at 10:32 AM

koraks said:
Why would they do this, though? The yellow coloration to the first wash suggests (as per interpretation of @Lachlan Young earlier on this forum) that Harman leverages a dye-based yellow filter system, which eliminates the necessity of a Cary Lea silver filter layer. I do agree that it's counterintuitive that Harman at this junction would attempt to make a positive film based on Phoenix, although selling it perhaps with a complementary chemistry kit as such might be in line with their existing multi-purpose marketing strategy.

Harman disclosed somewhere (might have been one of the videos) that the yellow filter layer is dye based - the shift from CLS to dye generally seems to have happened during the 1990's, but only on new products, so older ones still in production probably kept it until they were revised thoroughly/ withdrawn.

Unless Harman instigates a CD-3 coupler programme, I don't think they'll be doing an official 'positive' E-6 version of Phoenix - that it is somewhat successfully cross-processable is more a phenomena of this stage in R&D - as you say, the successful integration of masking couplers will end any real usefulness for cross-process, but put the colour rendering/ contrast very much closer to where it should be - all the weirdness of the current product is purely to ensure that the masking will work correctly. The other thing no one seems to have noticed is that Ilford could make a much contrastier XP2 if they wanted...

Oblidor · Sunday at 6:20 AM

chromemax said:
I would share some test for get slides from Phoenix 200.
The speed is quite low, at 16 ISO there is the best balance between highlight and shadows. Color balance is quite good and color fidelity is like the Phoenix in C-41, brilliant reds and blues but yellow, orange and caucasian skin tones are lacking hue and saturation. Looking at the grayscale of the color-checker there is just a bit of cross-color with warm highlight and cold/greenish shadows.
This was the Process I used:
First developer Kodak HC-110 (old formula "Original Syrup") 1+19 for 6'30" @ 38°C
4 water rinses of 30" each
Inversion exposing the reel at a 400w halogen lamps for a total of 4', flipping upside down the reel after 2'
Color developer of Bellini C-41 kit for 3' @ 38°C
4 water rinses of 30" each
ECN-2 ferrycianide bleach (SR-29) for 5' @ 38°C
4 water rinses of 30" each
Rollei RXN neutral fixer 1+4 for 5' @ 38°C
wash
C-41 stabilizer

These are scans of the transparencies:
View attachment 394367 View attachment 394368 View attachment 394369 View attachment 394370 View attachment 394371 View attachment 394372 View attachment 394373 View attachment 394374 View attachment 394375

ISO 16 ? Did you mean 160? The three passport colour checkers photos, what where the settings ISO and EV?

chromemax · Sunday at 1:26 PM

Oblidor said:
ISO 16 ? Did you mean 160? The three passport colour checkers photos, what where the settings ISO and EV?

I mean 16 ISO.
For the three colorchecker photos the exposure was taken with sekonic 858d light Meter in incident mode and ISO 20.
Camera was a Nikon f90 (no X) with Nikon SE 50mm f/1.8 in manuale mode. The frame on the left was exposed following the meter reading, the frame on the center at +0,5 stop and the frame on the right at +1 stop.
Looking at bottom row of colorchecker of the 20 ISO frame you can see that light values are well separate but shadow are too dark. The opposite in the centrale frame (the frame on the right is clearly overexposed), meaning that the right film speed is between 20 ISO and 20 minus half stop ISO, so 16 is a good choice.

These were exposed with Leica R9 in Program and Matrix with film Speed at 16.

Slide with Harman Phoenix 200

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ChrisGalway

koraks

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ChrisGalway

lamerko

koraks

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Lachlan Young

Oblidor

chromemax

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Slide with Harman Phoenix 200

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