Smoothest paper for coating?

M Carter · Mar 14, 2020

Ok, thanks all for the comments on my coating thread... now I need a paper I'm happy with.

For my first tests, I just fixed-out some fogged paper and coated on the back. Very nice smooth look, just like a matte factory paper. But not the best solution, since the wet emulsion will stick to anything once it dries a bit, handling it becomes kind of fraught, can't dry back-to-back, etc. I got some heavy hot-press paper to try; it does have some texture, which shows up when Bromoil inking. Kind of a cool look (think Ilford art) but doesn't suit this project.

What are people using for alt-process coating, silver emulsion, that can take the rigors of processing, toning, etc? I'd love to find something similar to a factory matte paper, but I don't know that it needs to be a baryta paper? I doubt the papers I've fixed out have baryta on the back??

Seems like there's so much inkjet paper out there these days, don't know if that can survive the wet-dry cycles.

removed account4 · Mar 14, 2020

I am not sure if this is an option for you, but I have a dwindled stash of paper that I was told was "virgin butcher paper". "Alex art supply" has it by the roll, and I think it comes in a roll from ULINE. its like "craft" paper, white, and not coated with wax or anything like that its just uncoated thin paper, but its not too thin .. maybe that will work for you ?

M Carter · Mar 14, 2020

jnantz said:
I am not sure if this is an option for you, but I have a dwindled stash of paper that I was told was "virgin butcher paper". "Alex art supply" has it by the roll, and I think it comes in a roll from ULINE. its like "craft" paper, white, and not coated with wax or anything like that its just uncoated thin paper, but its not too thin .. maybe that will work for you ?

Hmm, I dunno - I assume I need a paper that can stand up to soaking, chemicals, etc., and a fairly heavy weight. There are tons of art papers out there, for watercolor, silkscreen, mixed media, hot press, cold press... I need a proper paper for the process but a smoother finish, would be good to know what people are using when they want a standard photo-paper look and texture.

Just realized we still have a legit art supply store in my town, I'd thought they'd gone under - Michael's is really hit and miss, maybe I'll go take a look monday, and thanks!

koraks · Mar 15, 2020

Availability of papers tends to vary very much by region, so the papers I use are likely not available where you live. But I'd recommend looking for a hot pressed etching paper. I have personally used a lot of Schut Simili Japon which has one very smooth side and a somewhat coarser side, although the coarse side is still only very finely textured. Something like this might work very well for your purposes.

In general, etching papers are a good choice for alt processes in my experience due to their good wet handling characteristics and fairly neutral internal sizing which usually does not interefere much with alt process emulsions. For gelatin coating they probably require additional gelatin sizing for best results.

I'm not sure if back to back drying will be feasible with "art" papers; maybe with sufficiently hardened sizing, but you'd have to try. To get the prints to dry flat I'd recommend drying them taped with gummed tape to a mirror/glass sheet with nothing touching the emulsion/image.

dwross · Mar 15, 2020

Freestyle sells Adox uncoated baryta paper. Rives BFK and BFK lightweight are both excellent papers. The lightweight lends itself beautifully to ferrotyping on Mylar. Produces a lovely "photofinisher" gloss.

dwross · Mar 15, 2020

Unless the paper you are using is very thick, a dried, coated sheet will stick to glass. It will not stick to Mylar/polyester.

Lachlan Young · Mar 15, 2020

There is/ was a paper & board range called 'Schoellershammer 4G' that had an ultrasmooth 250gsm sheet intended for extremely detailed botanical painting/ ink drawing etc - however it seems that manufacture has moved to another mill, but keeping the '4G' name - which of course makes it a pain to track down via Google...

Otherwise a high quality 100% alpha-cellulose (or better) & ideally unbuffered ultra smooth hot press sheet is likely what you need - bear in mind that all industrially made baryta base matte papers add a matting agent to control surface finish. I'd possibly try Talas and see what they might have.

Peter Schrager · Mar 15, 2020

several years ago I bought a number of boxes of uncoated baryta paper from the Formulary in 11x14 size. it came out of the Ilford factory and coats beautifully
perhaps we could approach them again for a GROUP BUY..if anyone here is interested reach out to me
I just tape the paper to an oversized sheet of glass and coat my POP emulsion.
I've also had varying degrees of success with the Rives BFK but much prefer the baryta
I have used the ADOX paper also but do wish it was on a heavier stock ....

iandvaag · Mar 15, 2020

PE put me on to Strathmore Bristol Smooth. It coats well and stands up to processing.

Lachlan Young · Mar 15, 2020

iandvaag said:
PE put me on to Strathmore Bristol Smooth. It coats well and stands up to processing.

Was it the 300, 400 or 500 series? I know that the 300 is single ply and the others are 2-ply or greater - and if they hold up well to processing, that's very good news.

M Carter · Mar 15, 2020

koraks said:
I'm not sure if back to back drying will be feasible with "art" papers; maybe with sufficiently hardened sizing, but you'd have to try. To get the prints to dry flat I'd recommend drying them taped with gummed tape to a mirror/glass sheet with nothing touching the emulsion/image.

dwross said:
Unless the paper you are using is very thick, a dried, coated sheet will stick to glass. It will not stick to Mylar/polyester.

Regarding the drying - back-to-back would be nice, but I'm using the paper for bromoil, so a big issue is the old emulsion side sticking to the glass during inking, as the print begins to dry. And the "old" emulsion side is really slippery when wet, so wet-coating the paper is difficult, and while I like to gently squeegie the prints/matrices with paper towels, but the prints just slide all over my squeegie board due to the slippery wet emulsion on the back! I need 16x20 paper and up, so I need to give myself every advantage for handling. But so far, fixing out old paper has at least let me dial in my coating process, that's going great.

BTW - I'm coating FOMA emulsion to just make normal enlarger paper (not doing platinum/etc), but I did find a neat trick when wet coating on glass - while the emulsion is melting, I stick a wet towel in the freezer for 10 minutes or so and stuff it in a soft cooler. Once the paper is coated, I spread out the cold towel and set the glass on it; the emulsions sets up very quickly this way and I can get it hung and vertical after a couple minutes, really a nice change.

iandvaag · Mar 16, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Was it the 300, 400 or 500 series?

I've always used the 300 series (it comes in a yellow pad). PE's suggestion in general was any hot press paper with 100 lbs weight or greater, but I know he used the Strathmore product quite extensively. I find it coats quite well and holds up to processing, although I have never done extensive archival hour long washing under flow without a wash aid.

Lachlan Young · Mar 16, 2020

iandvaag said:
I've always used the 300 series (it comes in a yellow pad). PE's suggestion in general was any hot press paper with 100 lbs weight or greater, but I know he used the Strathmore product quite extensively. I find it coats quite well and holds up to processing, although I have never done extensive archival hour long washing under flow without a wash aid.

Cheers - a single ply (as the 300 series is) should hold up pretty well - I'd be more concerned about the 2-ply 400 or 500 series delaminating.

iandvaag · Mar 16, 2020

Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry, I've never tried the multi-ply versions.

M Carter · Mar 18, 2020

iandvaag said:
Ah, I see what you mean. Sorry, I've never tried the multi-ply versions.

I've just tried some Arches 88 hot press - smooth texture, but sort of a medium weight when compared to a good fiber photo paper. Haven't processed it yet, but got a smooth coating and held up well to being wet for 20 minutes or so.

My local store has the platine paper, designed for platinum/etc - but sheesh, twenty bucks a sheet!!! I passed on that one!

jim10219 · Mar 18, 2020

The smoothest paper that I've encountered that actually works well for alternative process prints is Strathmore Mixed Media 400 series. It holds up well to multiple washes, though you'll likely only get about three or four out of it. It's smooth as printer paper, but without the coating.

The downside to it is it isn't an archival paper. The upside is its cheap and easy to find. I prefer Fabriano Artistico Hot Press 640 gsm (300 lb) for alternative process, as it's smoother than most (but not as smooth as the Strathmore Mixed Media) and is archival. Plus, it's thick enough to be nearly indestructible. It doesn't work well for cyanotypes without an acid pre-bath, due to the sizing they use. But for any non-iron process, it should be fine as is (and works well for iron based processes after the acid bath).

Lachlan Young · Mar 18, 2020

M Carter said:
I've just tried some Arches 88 hot press - smooth texture, but sort of a medium weight when compared to a good fiber photo paper. Haven't processed it yet, but got a smooth coating and held up well to being wet for 20 minutes or so.

My local store has the platine paper, designed for platinum/etc - but sheesh, twenty bucks a sheet!!! I passed on that one!

Arches 88 is a waterleaf paper - ie no sizing whatsoever - apart from what gelatin it may have absorbed from your coating. It may turn back into pulp upon more than a short immersion in processing chemistry.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 18, 2020

Arches 88 is an unsized paper that is not ideal for alt process...even with acrylic sizing for carbon transfer. It's great for printmaking such as screen printing, intaglio though.

M Carter · Mar 18, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Arches 88 is a waterleaf paper - ie no sizing whatsoever - apart from what gelatin it may have absorbed from your coating. It may turn back into pulp upon more than a short immersion in processing chemistry.

Andrew O'Neill said:
Arches 88 is an unsized paper that is not ideal for alt process...even with acrylic sizing for carbon transfer. It's great for printmaking such as screen printing, intaglio though.

Well, I tried it - coated well, held up to processing and washing, but some weirdness - it fizzes when it hits the developer, and there's a weird staining from the emulsion, even after fixing for 60 seconds - the stain seems to fade in while fixing.I assume it has to do with no sizing, something I hadn't really thought about.

I see I can get Arches Platine on line for $11 a sheet, I'm going to finish up this project on fixed-out paper to get it out of my dang hair (I'm doing 16x20 bromoil prints, photographing those 4x5, and printing the 4x5 negs on canvas with liquid emulsion and then tinting them with oil glazes - so the Bromoil is really just an interim step). Thanks guys.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 18, 2020

M Carter said:
Well, I tried it - coated well, held up to processing and washing, but some weirdness - it fizzes when it hits the developer, and there's a weird staining from the emulsion, even after fixing for 60 seconds - the stain seems to fade in while fixing.I assume it has to do with no sizing, something I hadn't really thought about.

I see I can get Arches Platine on line for $11 a sheet, I'm going to finish up this project on fixed-out paper to get it out of my dang hair (I'm doing 16x20 bromoil prints, photographing those 4x5, and printing the 4x5 negs on canvas with liquid emulsion and then tinting them with oil glazes - so the Bromoil is really just an interim step). Thanks guys.

Well, if you put it through a hot water bath like we do for carbon transfer printing, it probably would have fallen apart..
I use Arches Platine sometimes, until my stock runs out. That's probably the smoothest paper I've ever used. I've been using Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag. It isn't as smooth as Platine, but still a beautiful paper to work with.

Lachlan Young · Mar 18, 2020

M Carter said:
Well, I tried it - coated well, held up to processing and washing, but some weirdness - it fizzes when it hits the developer, and there's a weird staining from the emulsion, even after fixing for 60 seconds - the stain seems to fade in while fixing.I assume it has to do with no sizing, something I hadn't really thought about.

I see I can get Arches Platine on line for $11 a sheet, I'm going to finish up this project on fixed-out paper to get it out of my dang hair (I'm doing 16x20 bromoil prints, photographing those 4x5, and printing the 4x5 negs on canvas with liquid emulsion and then tinting them with oil glazes - so the Bromoil is really just an interim step). Thanks guys.

Something else to possibly try might be Arches Aquarelle HP - it's heavily gelatin sized and remarkably smooth surfaced.

Oh, and Fomabrom emulsions usually need 3 mins fix - even in rapid fix. I'm also not sure if the staining might be an adverse reaction with the alkaline buffer in the sheet.

M Carter · Mar 21, 2020

Lachlan Young said:
Something else to possibly try might be Arches Aquarelle HP - it's heavily gelatin sized and remarkably smooth surfaced.

Oh, and Fomabrom emulsions usually need 3 mins fix - even in rapid fix. I'm also not sure if the staining might be an adverse reaction with the alkaline buffer in the sheet.

I'll try going even longer in that case; the staining seems to be more prevalent with coating errors, like I can see where the coating was thicker, so I assume the fix isn't working its way down in enough?

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