Tips for belini e6

[MingMingPhoto]

hello everyone.


I've been using the tetenal e6 chemicals for a while and have had excellent results. I've never done the full 6 step e6 process but since tetenal has stopped producing the e6 I've had no choice but to purchase the belini. I'm going to run a small PERSONAL experiment to see if I can even tell the difference between the 6 step and 3 steo processes. If thye are the same I'm going to try to consolidate the belini working solutions so they can fit in my machine (filmomat only has three chemical resivuars).

would anyone be able to tell me if they know which chemicals can be combined to make the kit a three step process? I'm running under the assumption that it can be done. also a data sheet on the life of the chemicals would be nice if anyone has

 

[koraks]

I'm running under the assumption that it can be done.

I'm not and I would advise against trying to do this. I've had a quick peek at the MSDS and it's a lot of work to figure out what actual safety risks you're running if you start mixing combinations of those chemicals, and I'm not even talking about effectiveness let alone how long the chemistry will last if you use it that way. You may have to face forming toxic fumes, vastly reduced processing capacity, reduced activity, incomplete processing in one or several steps of the process and/or drastically reduced lifetime of the chemistry which may end up being less than what's needed to even do a single processing run.

If you need a 3-bath process, I'd look for an actual 3-bath solution and stick with that.
The fact that a 6-bath E6 process is sold and used as a 6-bath solution has good reasons. If it was all unnecessary, trust me that industry would have moved to a simplified version decades ago. Big labs also liked to have fewer baths if possible. Apparently, it was not possible/feasible.

also a data sheet on the life of the chemicals would be nice if anyone has

It'll depend on many factors; no hard & fast figures can be given on this. In general, things to look out for, are:
* Reduced activity of the first developer due to use (halide buildup & pH shift) and oxidation.
* Reduced activity of the fogging agent due to inherent instability of tin chloride solutions
* Reduced activity of the color developer; same as (1)
* Reduced activity of the bleach due to halide use; can be replenished/regenerated if so desired
* Reduced activity of the fixer due to silver buildup and ultimately sulfuring out once antioxidants are used up

I would join the people who recommend using this up within a fairly brief timeframe (1-2 weeks max); so save up film until you have 8 rolls or the equivalent thereof and then process in rapid succession.

 

[afriman]

The two kits are quite different and you cannot "consolidate" the Belini baths to create a 3 step process. At most you can probably use the first developer from the two kits interchangeably, but that's not going to help you.

Something to bear in mind is that Adox will soon be manufacturing a replacement for the Tetenal kit, as reported elsewhere in these forums. You may want to wait for that.

 

[Richard Man]

Yea, don't do it. Mixing chemicals can be very dangerous to your health.

Plenty of 3-bath kits. 6-baths ones are the difficult ones to find.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Yea, don't do it. Mixing chemicals can be very dangerous to your health.

Plenty of 3-bath kits. 6-baths ones are the difficult ones to find.

I'm not and I would advise against trying to do this. I've had a quick peek at the MSDS and it's a lot of work to figure out what actual safety risks you're running if you start mixing combinations of those chemicals, and I'm not even talking about effectiveness let alone how long the chemistry will last if you use it that way. You may have to face forming toxic fumes, vastly reduced processing capacity, reduced activity, incomplete processing in one or several steps of the process and/or drastically reduced lifetime of the chemistry which may end up being less than what's needed to even do a single processing run.

If you need a 3-bath process, I'd look for an actual 3-bath solution and stick with that.
The fact that a 6-bath E6 process is sold and used as a 6-bath solution has good reasons. If it was all unnecessary, trust me that industry would have moved to a simplified version decades ago. Big labs also liked to have fewer baths if possible. Apparently, it was not possible/feasible.



It'll depend on many factors; no hard & fast figures can be given on this. In general, things to look out for, are:
* Reduced activity of the first developer due to use (halide buildup & pH shift) and oxidation.
* Reduced activity of the fogging agent due to inherent instability of tin chloride solutions
* Reduced activity of the color developer; same as (1)
* Reduced activity of the bleach due to halide use; can be replenished/regenerated if so desired
* Reduced activity of the fixer due to silver buildup and ultimately sulfuring out once antioxidants are used up

I would join the people who recommend using this up within a fairly brief timeframe (1-2 weeks max); so save up film until you have 8 rolls or the equivalent thereof and then process in rapid succession.

The two kits are quite different and you cannot "consolidate" the Belini baths to create a 3 step process. At most you can probably use the first developer from the two kits interchangeably, but that's not going to help you.

Something to bear in mind is that Adox will soon be manufacturing a replacement for the Tetenal kit, as reported elsewhere in these forums. You may want to wait for that.

alright thank you guys. so I noticed in the directions I'm not supposed to wash between Color Developer and the pre bleach. the color developer is the final chemical in the first set since I only have three tanks. do you guys think that theres anything I can do to smoothly transition to the second part? also am I able to take a break between processing the two sets (since I may get busy while developing and have to leave the film i nthe machine for some time)

otherwise are there any three chem kits you'd recommend I'd use since tetenal does not have it anymore? I hear the cinestill is bad

 

[koraks]

do you guys think that theres anything I can do to smoothly transition to the second part?

What do you mean exactly?
I doubt there's a problem if you wash between developer and pre-bleach. Don't wash between pre-bleach and bleach. Carryover form pre-bleach into bleach may be intended.

also am I able to take a break between processing the two sets (since I may get busy while developing and have to leave the film i nthe machine for some time)

I would advise against it, although the process isn't very sensitive to disturbance after the color developer.

 

[afriman]

3-bath kits are generally not recommended if you want optimal results. The Tetenal kit is/was the only exception I'm aware of.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

3-bath kits are generally not recommended if you want optimal results. The Tetenal kit is/was the only exception I'm aware of.

what made tetenal an exception?

What do you mean exactly?
I doubt there's a problem if you wash between developer and pre-bleach. Don't wash between pre-bleach and bleach. Carryover form pre-bleach into bleach may be intended.



I would advise against it, although the process isn't very sensitive to disturbance after the color developer.

my processor only has three tanks so i have to brek the process up. I gotta figure something out. may have to do the second part by hand - however it's still light sensitive after the color devloper right?

 

[Steven Lee]

what made tetenal an exception?

They were not an exception. I will be very surprised if a 3-bath E6 kit can match the quality of a proper E-6 process. Same goes for simplified C-41 kits. Chemistry is not semiconductors. Progress was not that rapid. Not much has changed since the Kodak/Fujifilm heydays. If two giant chemical R&D juggernauts couldn't meet their own quality standards with a simplified process, why would boutique R&D shops succeed? Occam's razor suggests that they don't. You get substandard results by using simplified kits. Scanning and digital post-processing probably erases the difference.

 

[koraks]

however it's still light sensitive after the color devloper right?

It shouldn't really matter. You could do everything after the fogging step in normal light.

 

[STR1015]

It shouldn't really matter. You could do everything after the fogging step in normal light.

After the reversal process which fogs the film chemically, the film should no longer be light sensitive anymore.

 

[bags27]

I've gotten excellent results from Bellini's e-6. Then again, I got similar results from Tetenal.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

It shouldn't really matter. You could do everything after the fogging step in normal light.

After the reversal process which fogs the film chemically, the film should no longer be light sensitive anymore.

interesting, so that being said is it possible to:
over pre bleach,
over bleach
over fix
e6 film (in the belini kit, but also in general)

I don't think the temperature is suppsoed to be as sensitive after the reversal process, so I'll attempt to just manually develop following the end of the reversal step.

btw, do you know how the reversal step actually works? or actually can yo uexplain all of the steps please?

I've gotten excellent results from Bellini's e-6. Then again, I got similar results from Tetenal.

I just ran a little test with both films the other day, keep in mind I altered the belini process a bit to test it with my work flow... I rinsed one time after the color developer step and let it sit fo an hour (testing for what happens if I get distracted mid developing). you're not suppsoed to rinse after CD. then I processed the rest normally. I also reduced the first developer time by 20% since I was doing continuous aggitation and I've gotten better results doing the same with tetenal.

becasue of all this the belini developed film came out with the dots of what I think is over color developement. other parts of the image are ok, so basically i don't think this is the best test in terems of judging the quality of one over the other but this is what I got:

both roll are Eltachrome 100, underexposed sorry about that. also didn't think to include the sky till halfway through the roll

 

[koraks]

is it possible to:
over pre bleach,
over bleach
over fix
e6 film (in the belini kit, but also in general)

Not really, no. Those are non-critical steps as long as you err on the long side instead of the short side. Of course - within reason. I'm not sure all will end will if you leave your film for an hour in the pre-bleach while you attend to customers etc.

how the reversal step actually works?

The film is exposed, activating part of the silver halide. This is developed into a metallic silver image in the first developer. The remaining silver halide that hasn't participated so far is then fogged (chemically or with light) so it becomes developable. The color developer is used to develop this silver, and as a byproduct, the image dyes are formed. Finally, the metallic silver (both from the first developer and the color developer steps) is bleached back to silver halide, and ultimately fixed out, leaving just the dyes.

So the reversal isn't just one step, per se. It's a series of interrelated actions that results in the positive image. It works by first creating a negative silver image that doesn't create dyes, leaving a positive 'image' in silver halide that is then used to create the dye image.

For the fogging step, visible light can be used, but most kits will use something like tin (II) chloride; IIRC sodium dithionite might also be used, but don't quote me on that.
The pre-bleach may contain a bleach accelerator without which the bleach step will be slow. Also, the pre-bleach can contain a formaline-precursor that is important for the long-term stability of the dyes.

 

[loccdor]

otherwise are there any three chem kits you'd recommend I'd use since tetenal does not have it anymore? I hear the cinestill is bad

I've had good results with the Arista E-6 kit which is 3 bath. I can get it to last at least 6 months and at least 30 films stored in 1 quart plastic bottles. It's $55 from Freestyle. Slides look good held up to the light, projected, or digitized. My results satisfy me as much as the E-6 lab I was using (actually more, less scratches and dirt).

I was considering using the CineStill kit but was warned away from it.

 

[bags27]

I can't remember who makes Arista, but I think it's someone "good." After I couldn't get any more Tetenal (2 boxes were auctioned on ebay and I missed out) I would have bought that before I found some Bellini, which I'm happy with.

 

[loccdor]

I've had good results with the Arista E-6 kit which is 3 bath.

Sorry I meant to say the Film Photography Project 3 bath quart size E-6 kit, which is $37. I believe it is "Unicolor" brand. I had used Arista in the past and got confused. I'm pretty sure they're all similar stuff and capable of good results, except the Cinestill ones.

 

[MattKing]

I believe it is "Unicolor" brand.

Which means PhotoSys - the new licensee manufacturer for Kodak branded photo-chemistry

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Not really, no. Those are non-critical steps as long as you err on the long side instead of the short side. Of course - within reason. I'm not sure all will end will if you leave your film for an hour in the pre-bleach while you attend to customers etc.



The film is exposed, activating part of the silver halide. This is developed into a metallic silver image in the first developer. The remaining silver halide that hasn't participated so far is then fogged (chemically or with light) so it becomes developable. The color developer is used to develop this silver, and as a byproduct, the image dyes are formed. Finally, the metallic silver (both from the first developer and the color developer steps) is bleached back to silver halide, and ultimately fixed out, leaving just the dyes.

So the reversal isn't just one step, per se. It's a series of interrelated actions that results in the positive image. It works by first creating a negative silver image that doesn't create dyes, leaving a positive 'image' in silver halide that is then used to create the dye image.

For the fogging step, visible light can be used, but most kits will use something like tin (II) chloride; IIRC sodium dithionite might also be used, but don't quote me on that.
The pre-bleach may contain a bleach accelerator without which the bleach step will be slow. Also, the pre-bleach can contain a formaline-precursor that is important for the long-term stability of the dyes.

so first devloper activates the silver iodine and makes it metalic sliver (where applicable) -
color developer interacts with the metallic silver to create the color dies
pre bleach is a bleach accelerrator and also a die stabalizer
bleach turns everything back to silver iodine
fixer removes all sliver iodine
stablizer also makes dies more stable

also can you comment on the two example photos I shared? what are your thoughts

is this right?

I've had good results with the Arista E-6 kit which is 3 bath. I can get it to last at least 6 months and at least 30 films stored in 1 quart plastic bottles. It's $55 from Freestyle. Slides look good held up to the light, projected, or digitized. My results satisfy me as much as the E-6 lab I was using (actually more, less scratches and dirt).

I was considering using the CineStill kit but was warned away from it.

thank you, I'll try these out

 

[bags27]

So, essentially, we're saying for e-6 anyone but Cinestill.

Cinestill, like most businesses, has strengths and weaknesses. Some of their stuff is good or at least interesting, some not. I really applaud that they're carrying Adox and like some of their own film. I confess that their 2 step (3 with stabilizer) c-41 is super easy and gives me good enough results.

If Adox brings back Tetenal (or a close approximation of it) e-6, that would be great and Cinesitll would likely carry that, too. But recently forced to use Bellini's 6- (or with stabilizer, 7-) step process, I'm actually happy with that as well. Got some incredible results.

 

[koraks]

so first devloper activates the silver iodine and makes it metalic sliver (where applicable) -

More or less; there's very little silver iodide in the emulsion, though. The majority of the silver halide in an E6 emulsion will likely be silver bromide.

color developer interacts with the metallic silver to create the color dies

No, color developer also develops silver halide into metallic silver. The oxidation product of the developer (the 'spent' developer, as it were) then attaches to nearby incomplete dye molecules, creating the colorful image dyes.

pre bleach is a bleach accelerrator and also a die stabalizer

Likely; this depends a bit on how the chemistry is designed. Ask @Rudeofus about this; he knows much more about this than I do.

bleach turns everything back to silver iodine

Silver bromide, usually; not iodide. But yes.

stablizer also makes dies more stable

AFAIK the stabilizer mostly prevents the incomplete dyes that did not contribute to forming the visible image dyes from coupling with something later on, making them visible. This would create fog and color shifts. But again, ask @Rudeofus.

also can you comment on the two example photos I shared? what are your thoughts

Looks good; underexposed a bit, as you mentioned, especially the second one.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

More or less; there's very little silver iodide in the emulsion, though. The majority of the silver halide in an E6 emulsion will likely be silver bromide.



No, color developer also develops silver halide into metallic silver. The oxidation product of the developer (the 'spent' developer, as it were) then attaches to nearby incomplete dye molecules, creating the colorful image dyes.



Likely; this depends a bit on how the chemistry is designed. Ask @Rudeofus about this; he knows much more about this than I do.



Silver bromide, usually; not iodide. But yes.



AFAIK the stabilizer mostly prevents the incomplete dyes that did not contribute to forming the visible image dyes from coupling with something later on, making them visible. This would create fog and color shifts. But again, ask @Rudeofus.



Looks good; underexposed a bit, as you mentioned, especially the second one.

so what is it that seperates CD and FD? Why can't FD be completly avoided since CD does the same thing + also develops the color dies?

how is it possible for the CD byproduct only activiate the color dies of the exposed silver rather than all silver?

what is the difference between silver iodide and bromide? why do they choose bromided mostly for e6?
and ok! hopefully the other person has a momnet to chime in as well!

oh and last thing, I reduced devleloping time on the FD by 20% in the second photo (it's belini) do you think that's why it's underxposed? Becasue they are cut outs from the same exact roll of film.
additionally do you see any noticiable difference between the two that would suggest six bath is better than three bath?

 

[koraks]

so what is it that seperates CD and FD?

The color developer devolves into an oxidation product that will bind with the color couplers to form a dye. The oxidized black & white developer used for the first developer produces a molecule that fails to do this, and as such cannot play a part in creating a dye.

Why can't FD be completly avoided since CD does the same thing + also develops the color dies?

If you'd use the color developer in the first step as well, you would start by developing a negative dye image. Then in the next color developer step, you'd also develop a positive dye image. The net result will be an entirely black slide.

how is it possible for the CD byproduct only activiate the color dies of the exposed silver rather than all silver?

("Dyes", not "dies".)
The dyes are not "of the silver". What happens is the following:
* Silver halide particles are exposed and thereby become developable.
* The developer comes into contact with these silver halide particles and if they're exposed/activated, develops them. What happens is a redox reaction that oxidizes the developer, and reduces the silver halide into silver metal.
* The oxidized developer remains in the watery solution and bumps into a dye coupler nearby.
* Due to their compatible structures, the oxidized developer and the dye coupler combine into a single molecule. This molecule is a colorful dye, either magenta, yellow or cyan.

So your question really boils down to why or how a silver halide becomes developable. For this, I'd start reading here which explains it very briefly, but in simple terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_halide#Light_sensitivity

what is the difference between silver iodide and bromide?

Silver iodide is a silver ion (Ag+) combined with an iodide ion (I-). Silver bromide is a silver ion with a bromide ion (Br-). They are both light sensitive, but their properties differ in a number of ways that are exploited in emulsion making. Both play an important role in particular in color film, but the bulk of an emulsion (film or paper) is virtually always silver bromide and/or silver chloride. Silver iodide is present in much smaller quantities.

why do they choose bromided mostly for e6?

This is not unique to E6 film, but to be honest, I'd have to look into it. There are several people on this forum who can rattle this off right off the tops of their heads; @Rudeofus and @Lachlan Young come to mind.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

The color developer devolves into an oxidation product that will bind with the color couplers to form a dye. The oxidized black & white developer used for the first developer produces a molecule that fails to do this, and as such cannot play a part in creating a dye.

so the silver is actually coupled with the dye - that's how it affects only the dyes that are attached to metallic silver?

If you'd use the color developer in the first step as well, you would start by developing a negative dye image. Then in the next color developer step, you'd also develop a positive dye image. The net result will be an entirely black slide.



("Dyes", not "dies".)
The dyes are not "of the silver". What happens is the following:
* Silver halide particles are exposed and thereby become developable.
* The developer comes into contact with these silver halide particles and if they're exposed/activated, develops them. What happens is a redox reaction that oxidizes the developer, and reduces the silver halide into silver metal.
* The oxidized developer remains in the watery solution and bumps into a dye coupler nearby.

what does 'coupler mean' itm eans they some how were able to bond one dye, to one cluster of silver? or is this all more random meaning that once it develops the silver it also develops the nearest thing which would be the dye closest to the initial reaction (seems a but sloppy if it's the latter, but just wondering)

* Due to their compatible structures, the oxidized developer and the dye coupler combine into a single molecule. This molecule is a colorful dye, either magenta, yellow or cyan.

So your question really boils down to why or how a silver halide becomes developable. For this, I'd start reading here which explains it very briefly, but in simple terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_halide#Light_sensitivity

no I think I get why the sivler is developeable. I read the webpage and did not understand it - but correct me if I'm wrong - the silver bromide valence electrons get excited with the energy of the photons that hit them, that excited electron has enough energy to move positions once it intereacts with the devloper (developer takes it) and the lsot electron converts the bromide silver to metallic silver

Silver iodide is a silver ion (Ag+) combined with an iodide ion (I-). Silver bromide is a silver ion with a bromide ion (Br-). They are both light sensitive, but their properties differ in a number of ways that are exploited in emulsion making. Both play an important role in particular in color film, but the bulk of an emulsion (film or paper) is virtually always silver bromide and/or silver chloride. Silver iodide is present in much smaller quantities.




This is not unique to E6 film, but to be honest, I'd have to look into it. There are several people on this forum who can rattle this off right off the tops of their heads; @Rudeofus and @Lachlan Young come to mind.

thank you koraks you're dah best

 

[koraks]

so the silver is actually coupled with the dye

No, the partial dye is located near the silver, suspended in the gelatin emulsion. They are distinct molecules, unrelated and unlinked.

The partial dyes are called "dye couplers" because they couple with another molecule later on: the oxidized developer. These partial dyes are typically suspended as oily globules in the emulsion. The silver halide is present in crystalline form, also in the emulsion. The idea is that if a developer molecule is oxidized by developing a silver halide particle, it floats away and finds a dye coupler molecule nearby. In pinciple, it could also float pretty far away, even to another color layer and link with a dye coupler there, but several provisions are taken in emulsion making to prevent this from happening. However, this migration does happen to a limited extent and it's part of the reason why we speak of 'dye clouds', since they tend to be somewhat vague/ill-defined blobs. It's a bit like dropping fountain pen ink onto a wet piece of paper.

to bond one dye, to one cluster of silver?

No bonding between dyes and silver happens.

or is this all more random meaning that once it develops the silver it also develops the nearest thing which would be the dye closest to the initial reaction (seems a but sloppy if it's the latter, but just wondering)

That's it. It's indeed a bit sloppy in principle, and this is one of the challenges of emulsion making - to control the sloppiness.

the silver bromide valence electrons get excited with the energy of the photons that hit them, that excited electron has enough energy to move positions once it intereacts with the devloper (developer takes it) and the lsot electron converts the bromide silver to metallic silver

Yeah, I think in laymen's terms as you and I are capable of that's a pretty good shot. Something with electrons, holes and redox reactions. For me, that's been good enough up to the present; it's one of those things I'll dive into when/if needed.