Uneven Development w/ Jobo CPE-3 + Lift

xtol121 · Oct 22, 2020

Hi, and apologies for opening another "uneven development" thread. I have searched through tons of posts, but haven't been able to find a fix.

I recently purchased a Jobo CPE-3 + Lift kit with a 1520 tank. I have been getting really bad uneven development in any smooth toned areas of my image. I've attached a screenshot of images of a flat wall, and images from a roll out in the field where you can see how it affects the sky.

Here’s more info about the equipment and process:
Brand new 1520 tank, CPE-3 processor and Lift
Tried both plastic reels and the Hewes stainless reels
Tried 35mm 400TX, HP5, and P3200TMZ
Tried freshly mixed XTOL 1-1, XTOL Straight, DD-X developers
Tried solution volumes of 300ml, 400ml, 500ml, 600ml (mixed to proper dilutions or used straight)
Tried with 5 min pre-wet, tried without pre-wet
68º for 6, 8, and 10 minutes
Processor and tank on the lift are level, rotating during the entire process
2 different changing bags
2 different cameras

And still the problem persists. Has anyone experienced this, and more importantly has anyone fixed it? I've invested a lot of cash into this thing and I'd really love to get it working properly.

Thanks for any help!

ic-racer · Oct 22, 2020

DELETED: I thought those were negatives you posted. Your negatives must be under-developed at the edges, I have not seen that, usually it is the other way around.

xtol121 · Oct 22, 2020

ic-racer said:
DELETED: I thought those were negatives you posted. Your negatives must be under-developed at the edges, I have not seen that, usually it is the other way around.

It's very strange. It seems like it goes over developed along the film border, and then under developed just on the inside of the frame. Notice the film border is black, then there's a lighter tone (high density) and then it goes to a darker tone (lower density), and then it evens out but still isn't perfect through the middle of the frame. I'm super confused.

MattKing · Oct 22, 2020

Can you show us the negatives themselves?
Are these scans of negatives, or scans of optical prints?

xtol121 · Oct 22, 2020

They are DSLR Camera scans in the original post, captured with a negative supply 35mm film carrier, processed in Capture One. I never had any issues like this before the Jobo, and my camera scanning setup hasn't changed.

Attached are iPhone grab shots of the negatives on a light table and a contact sheet printed in the darkroom. The unevenness appears in the darkroom which is the most worrisome part.

Also, I have tested it with my Leica M-A, a Leica M4-2, and a Canon EOS 3, so I'm positive it's not the film camera...

Kino · Oct 22, 2020

What camera were you using and have you been hand processing with this camera before this happened with good results with similar film/developer combos?

What rotation speed were you using?

One or two rolls of film in the Jobo tank? If one, did you have both reels in the tank; one empty?

Is your water trending alkaline?

Looks like directional/agitation effects from too much velocity of the developer on both edges of the film, while the interior of the reel is more uniform.

xtol121 · Oct 22, 2020

@Kino I have tested it with my Leica M-A, a Leica M4-2, and a Canon EOS 3. I've had great results with film from these cameras and developers in a stainless steel hand tank. I recently moved into a photo studio that only has a shared public restroom that I can not develop in. I bought a Jobo CPE-3 so that I could process in the studio without worrying about making a mess outside of a sink, and also so I can process C-41. I'd love to continue using my stainless steel tanks but they leak too much for me to use outside of a sink. The Jobo has been a success in keeping the workspace clean!

The CPE-3 only has one rotation speed, I believe it's 75RPM.

The problem has shown itself with 1 and 2 rolls. Most of my testing has been with 1 roll, and I have tried it with 1 reel and with 2 reels. Similar results both times.

I use store bought distilled water for all chemicals, tap water for my 10x fill-dump wash cycle, and a final bath in distilled water with a touch of photo-flo before hanging in a film drying cabinet.

Thanks everyone who's chimed in so far trying to help!

Sirius Glass · Oct 22, 2020

I suspect that you are not using enough chemicals.

Kino · Oct 22, 2020

I think you have a 50 RPM option in manual mode for the expert tank. Check page 10 of the manual.

http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/JOBO_CPP-3_Manual_GB_V1.1_26.03.13.pdf

I would always put the empty reel in even when processing just one reel to keep agitation more predictable.

Other than that, I am a bit stumped...

xtol121 · Oct 22, 2020

@Sirius Glass the film from the contact sheet I posted was developed for 6.5min @ 68ºF in 600ml of XTOL 1:1 (300ml of freshly made stock solution and 300ml distilled water). Kodak recommends using 100ml of stock solution per roll, and Jobo recommends a minimum of 240ml in a 1520 tank, and to never exceed 600ml on a CPE-3. I also developed 1 roll in 300ml of DD-X 1+4, using the dilution suggested in Ilford's literature. And I've also done a few other combinations ranging from 300ml to 400ml, to 500ml, to 600ml. Still the problem persists.

@Kino ahh, I wish I had the CPP-3 but alas I can only afford the CPE-3 at the moment. Seems to be a bit of a budget machine compared to their CPP-3...thanks for your help!

glbeas · Oct 22, 2020

If your tank permits it you may need to hand agitate the tank. It would need the red cap that presses on to the top. The cog insert would have to be removed from the lid and a enough chemicals to fill the tank used.

Kino · Oct 22, 2020

xtol121 said:
@Kino ahh, I wish I had the CPP-3 but alas I can only afford the CPE-3 at the moment. Seems to be a bit of a budget machine compared to their CPP-3...thanks for your help!

Oh! Sorry, I should have looked closer!

Does it appear that the drum is rotating too fast or does the motor seem like it's straining? Maybe your speed control is a bit off...

Вormental_old · Oct 22, 2020

@xtol121 I am almost certain this is a scanning issue. I have the same Negative Supply film carrier, and I saw similar effects until I adjusted my light source (I had similar effect around the edges). How are you scanning it, i.e. what equipment is used, and can you show the photo of your setup?

xtol121 · Oct 22, 2020

@Bormental I wish it was a scanning issue, but if you look at the contact sheet in post #5 you can see it in the actual darkroom contact print. FWIW I have the complete Negative Supply kit with the riser, mount, light source, and film carriers. I scan rolls for other people developed at a film lab and those rolls do no exhibit that problem, and none of my rolls prior to using the jobo showed it either. Setup photo is attached, but the problem exists on the actual negative unfortunately...

Вormental_old · Oct 22, 2020

Well... here goes my theory! Anyway, best of luck figuring this out.

Sirius Glass · Oct 23, 2020

xtol121 said:
@Sirius Glass the film from the contact sheet I posted was developed for 6.5min @ 68ºF in 600ml of XTOL 1:1 (300ml of freshly made stock solution and 300ml distilled water). Kodak recommends using 100ml of stock solution per roll, and Jobo recommends a minimum of 240ml in a 1520 tank, and to never exceed 600ml on a CPE-3. I also developed 1 roll in 300ml of DD-X 1+4, using the dilution suggested in Ilford's literature. And I've also done a few other combinations ranging from 300ml to 400ml, to 500ml, to 600ml. Still the problem persists.

@Kino ahh, I wish I had the CPP-3 but alas I can only afford the CPE-3 at the moment. Seems to be a bit of a budget machine compared to their CPP-3...thanks for your help!

In that case, stay below 600m ml, I usually use around 500 ml or less.

AgX · Oct 23, 2020

But the OP tried other volumes, down to 300ml and experienced the same.

MattKing · Oct 23, 2020

Have you reached out to CatLabs?

xtol121 · Oct 23, 2020

@MattKing yes, I've been chatting with CatLabs and we still haven't nailed it down. Lots of troubleshooting talk about light leaks, but that seems so unlikely given that I've used film from 3 different cameras, and 2 different changing bags, none of which have given me an issue in the past. I've even had a friend load a reel and tank for me just to be sure it wasn't user error. Light leaks also wouldn't explain the minus density problem, but I've been wrong before!

But, some good news! I was able to borrow a 2500 series tank and reel. I just gave it a whirl using 500ml of XTOL stock with a 35mm roll of 400TX and the results are encouraging. The strange +/- density issue seems to be fixed, but I have some sprocket hole surge instead... not sure if that's from just having 1 roll on 1 reel in a 2 reel tank. Any guesses?

The vignette in the attached file is probably from shooting at f2.8 on my 28mm Elmarit-M. Hoping to make a contact print later this weekend, but for now the scan makes me happy.

Again, thanks everyone for all of your help and suggestions!! I'll update this thread in a few days when I have some more conclusive test results. Hopefully I'll be able to borrow a different 1500 tank to try and find out if my original tank is just defective. TGIF!

Oren Grad · Oct 23, 2020

FWIW, the document "Instruction Manual and Processing Hints - Jobo CPP-2 Rotary Processor", dating back to the days when Jobo Fototechnic USA was based in Ann Arbor, includes the following text:

BLACK AND WHITE FILM PROCESSING

Black and white film processing is critical in regards to evenness. Swirlings caused by support members in the reel itself lead to a partially increased development. Additionally, bromium run-outs caused by the image itself may occur, which then appear as bromium smears. In order to eliminate these problems, it is sometimes necessary to remove the tank from the processor and do an inversion every 30 seconds. In this way, the solution is spread over the entire film in a favorable flow so that even critical images - for instance with plain backgrounds - can be evenly developed.

Might be worth a try.

AgX · Oct 23, 2020

To me it is a flow connected issue. Such is a basic problem with rotational processors. However the question is why you experience that in your set-up whereas others with same set-up do not.

AgX · Oct 23, 2020

A remedy may be installing a narrow ring around the tank that rests on the rollers, but that is mounted off center. Thus introducing a tilt around a perpendicular axis (rocking movement). In the 70s Jobo themselves offered such.

But this still leaves my question above unanswered...

pentaxuser · Oct 23, 2020

AgX said:
A remedy may be installing a narrow ring around the tank that rests on the rollers, but that is mounted off center. Thus introducing a tilt around a perpendicular axis (rocking movement). In the 70s Jobo themselves offered such.

But this still leaves my question above unanswered...

Good points but why does a 2500 tank and reel then appear to solve the problem. What might it be with the 1520 tank that results in the problem? I think we can at least rule out the CPE-3 or anything to do with its setting such as rotation etc as that was the same one that was used with the 1520 tank

pentaxuser

AgX · Oct 23, 2020

My guess is that in the OP's set-up the rotational speed is different from the common set-up (with same tank).

There is a difference between 2xxx and 1xxx tanks.
At same angular speed (rotation frequency) the wider tanks yield higher linear speed at least at the outer windings, the same time the channels between windings being wider. This all resulting in different flow dynamics.

xtol121 · Oct 24, 2020

@Oren Grad any chance you could link me to that document? I did a few google searches but I keep finding more recent documents, but I do enjoy reading and picking up tips from any document new and old. A user on a few other forums by the name of Bob Carnie experienced similar issues and described them as "road ruts". His solution sounds very similar to your/Jobo of the past's recommendation of adding in manual agitation, at least for the first minute of processing. My issue with this is that the current CPE-3 + Lift is marked towards black and white, and to do manual agitation you would need to use the magnet base. The Lift uses a cog lid on the tank which prevents any inversions, and in my brief experience prevents you from mounting the tank without spilling any liquid out of the open top. The manual agitation solution would essentially make the main reason I bought the machine useless, which is to have a simple clean mess free solution to processing in my studio that does not have access to a sink. If I'm going to agitate by hand I could have saved $2000 USD and continued using my leaky stainless steel tanks...

@AgX the narrow ring (maybe rubber band or similar?) idea actual sounds pretty cool! when I go through my next round of testing with the 1500 tank I'll give that a try and see how it ends up. My only concern is if the "bump" will tweak or hurt the motor.

@pentaxuser Not sure why the 2500 tank seems to solve the problem. Could it be the angle of the film inside the larger reels being less severe? But yes, I do not think the CPE-3 is at fault. It has to be something in the 1520 tank/reel situation. To be honest the CPE-3 is a pretty basic piece of kit, regardless of the price. It's the tank system that complicates things. One thing I can say is that it's nice to be able to completely standardize on the 2500 system for 35mm, 120, and 4x5. No need to jump back and forth between the 1500 and 2500 anymore.

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