Uneven Development w/ Jobo CPE-3 + Lift

AgX · Oct 24, 2020

xtol121 said:
@AgX the narrow ring (maybe rubber band or similar?) idea actual sounds pretty cool! when I go through my next round of testing with the 1500 tank I'll give that a try and see how it ends up. My only concern is if the "bump" will tweak or hurt the motor.

No rubber band.

There are several ways to achieve this:

-) one or two partial layers of foam rubber, covered by one complete layer. The foam rubber though must be very dense to not induce too much rolling resistance
-) a band cut from plastic sheet as ABS, cemented around the tank by distance pieces of varying height
-) a circular sheet from ABS with an inner hole the diameter of the tank, but cut out excentrically, pushed over the tank

There will be no "bumb" as the rocking movement is continuous.

AgX · Oct 24, 2020

You indicated that you bought the processor new. Thus there still is a warranty on it. Thus have Jobo solve the issue.

shutterfinger · Oct 24, 2020

I use Jobo 2521 tanks, 2509n reels, and 2502 reels on occasion with a manual roller base.
I have found that the tank needs 15% to 20% more solution than is stated on the tank.
Although not stated in the instructions reversing direction so that there is an equal or near equal amount of rotation in each direction makes for very even development of B&W films. 1 or 2 rotation difference is negligible. I do not know if reversing rotation direction is possible on your processor.

My manual rotation speed is 60 rpm but I can do 75 rpm if I work at it. I doubt rotation speed is the source of your troubles.

Jobo 25xx instructions (multi language):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/17dqaWHD6UIf2zd3mxvbxu_HQ4iHTFX76/view?usp=sharing

halfaman · Oct 24, 2020

A friend of mine has processed several dozens of HP5 35mm rolls in a Jobo CPP3 withour any issues. There are two differences compared to your negatives: He uses HC-110 as developer; he uses 2xxx series tanks and reels.

Craig · Oct 25, 2020

Does the machine rotate one way only, or does it reverse directions? I'm not familiar with that particular model, my Jobo changes direction about every 2 drum rotations.

Dani · Jun 4, 2021

Any updates on this issue? I'm searching for "road ruts" and found this somewhat recent post. Did you ever get the issue resolved?

xtol121 · Jun 4, 2021

Dani said:
Any updates on this issue? I'm searching for "road ruts" and found this somewhat recent post. Did you ever get the issue resolved?

I experimented a bit more with the 2500 series tanks and still wasn't satisfied. Went back to hand inversion for a bit with great success, but that became overwhelming when processing large volumes so I purchased a Heiland TAS film processor and so far I've been satisfied. The TAS is not as efficient with chemicals as the Jobo unit, but it does take away most of the babysitting from hand inversion. Plus the film comes out every bit as even as hand inversion, with the added consistency that machine processing offers.

I do still use my Jobo CPE-3 for C-41 and RA-4 processing and I find it to be a fine machine for that purpose, but I was not happy with the results for B&W film.

Dani · Jun 4, 2021

And you haven't found any issues with C-41 120? Any road ruts or streaks? I'm using a Multitank 5 and getting streaks when developing 3 rolls with 500ml. Jobo calls for a minimum of 300ml for 3 rolls. I'm puzzled now.

xtol121 · Jun 4, 2021

300ml in the Multitank 5 (2550 tank) doesn't seem right. The Multitank 5 requires 640ml for rotation according to Jobo which is actually more than the CPE-3 can handle. Not just because of the motor, but because the tank will leak as well in my experience. I have done it on my CPE-3 and it quickly contaminated the water bath with chemicals. Maybe it's because of the lift or poor technique, but I stopped using my 2500 series tanks for roll film and only use them for 4x5.

If you're confusing the 1526 (a 1520+1530 module to make a 5 reel tank) and you're using 500ml you are still short by about 70ml. The 1526 requires 570ml for rotation. I don't know of any Jobo tanks that are 3 reel capacity aside from the 1530 which is and extension, not a tank. Jobo's minimum volumes are written for the tank, not for the reels. In a 1526 you need 570ml of chemistry if you have 1 reel or if you have 5 reels. The Multitank 2 (2520) calls for 270ml for rotation and the 1540 (1510+1530) needs 470ml for rotation.

I don't mean to sound rude but I'd take a second and check that you have your volumes right, it never hurts to use more. I use this PDF for my rotation chemistry volumes - http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/tank_and_drum_capacities.pdf

For what it's worth I get decent C-41 development doing either 5x 35mm rolls or 6x 120 rolls in a Jobo 1526 using Kodak Flexicolor chemistry. I use 600ml of chemistry because it's easier to measure than 570ml. I don't get any streaks or blemishes. Here's an untouched scan that has an even blue sky at the top and a pretty simple street/sidewalk at the bottom. Neither area shows the dreaded road rut/uneven density that I experienced processing black and white in the same tank.

xtol121 · Jun 4, 2021

Ah, I see that the Multitank 5 does suggest 330ml for 3x 120 (1 per each roll). I didn't catch that in my post above. Using 500ml should be more than adequate. I'm not sure how to help, sorry! Do your results look similar to my B&W uneven density in my original posts?

Dani · Jun 4, 2021

It's more present in 120 film rather than 35mm. When skies are present, busy scenes or portraits look fine. I never get anything weird with 35mm film. My results in C-41 look like road ruts that people have posted in other threads, just a line of lighter density that the developer sat there longer. Or uneven skies, similar to your original post, all in 120 with the Multitank 5. I don't use my Jobo for B&W because I prefer the emulsion to be submerged all the time.

Thank you for the help and the update!

mshchem · Jun 4, 2021

I use XTOL straight when using my Jobos. I've got 5 different machines I've acquired. That doesn't make me an expert. I have seen bromide drag, my theory is the straight XTOL has the capacity to deal with the agitation scheme Jobo uses.
I've developed a ton of film in good old Paterson tanks in XTOL 1:1, beautiful negatives.
I use the Jobo pretty much always now. CPP3, CPP2, Duolab or occasionally a couple CPE2 Plus units all have lifts. The little Duolab works great too.

xtol121 · Jun 5, 2021

@Dani Sorry you're going through the same ordeal, but with C-41. That's even more frustrating given the increased price. I'd reach out to Omer @ Catlabs and see if he has any suggestions. I know it doesn't help you but I just checked some of my 120 color negatives processed in my 1526 tank and they are even. I haven't gotten around to processing C-41 120 in the 2500 tanks so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

@mshchem quite the lab you've built! I did give straight XTOL a try when I was testing but I still ended up with similar results, but not as pronounced. It would probably be a workable solution if I wasn't doing so much wide open sky work here in California, but it was by no means perfectly even. I'm happy with my TAS for BW and Jobo for C-41 at the moment, but that little Duolab unit looks pretty cool!

mpirie · Jun 5, 2021

I've seen the problems the OP had with uneven development on spirals with 2500 tanks and 120 and 5x4 reels before.

On my CPA2, during the development cycle, i lift the tank off the rotation gear every 2 minutes to about 30 degrees in order to remove any laminar flow issues and mix the developer up while in the tank.

Seems to work for me and got rid of the density changes on both 120 and 5x4 sheet films.

Mike

AgX · Jun 5, 2021

I am surprised that a lift every 2 minutes has an effect at all.

mpirie · Jun 5, 2021

AgX said:
I am surprised that a lift every 2 minutes has an effect at all.

True, but with a 14.5 min dev-time in Pyrocat HD, it does make a difference to the edge density.....YMMV!

Mike

mshchem · Jun 5, 2021

The 2500 series tanks are not my 1st choice, I like the 1500. The TAS processor is cool, but I have so much stuff.

mshchem · Jun 5, 2021

xtol121 said:
300ml in the Multitank 5 (2550 tank) doesn't seem right. The Multitank 5 requires 640ml for rotation according to Jobo which is actually more than the CPE-3 can handle. Not just because of the motor, but because the tank will leak as well in my experience. I have done it on my CPE-3 and it quickly contaminated the water bath with chemicals. Maybe it's because of the lift or poor technique, but I stopped using my 2500 series tanks for roll film and only use them for 4x5.

If you're confusing the 1526 (a 1520+1530 module to make a 5 reel tank) and you're using 500ml you are still short by about 70ml. The 1526 requires 570ml for rotation. I don't know of any Jobo tanks that are 3 reel capacity aside from the 1530 which is and extension, not a tank. Jobo's minimum volumes are written for the tank, not for the reels. In a 1526 you need 570ml of chemistry if you have 1 reel or if you have 5 reels. The Multitank 2 (2520) calls for 270ml for rotation and the 1540 (1510+1530) needs 470ml for rotation.

I don't mean to sound rude but I'd take a second and check that you have your volumes right, it never hurts to use more. I use this PDF for my rotation chemistry volumes - http://www.jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/tank_and_drum_capacities.pdf

For what it's worth I get decent C-41 development doing either 5x 35mm rolls or 6x 120 rolls in a Jobo 1526 using Kodak Flexicolor chemistry. I use 600ml of chemistry because it's easier to measure than 570ml. I don't get any streaks or blemishes. Here's an untouched scan that has an even blue sky at the top and a pretty simple street/sidewalk at the bottom. Neither area shows the dreaded road rut/uneven density that I experienced processing black and white in the same tank.

All great advice, and, nice photo

mshchem · Jun 5, 2021

I use 20 ounce Gatorade bottles for color, nicely hold 600ml. I transfer to the Jobo bottles for use. I was splitting Tetenal 5L E6 kits. Alas no more 5L kits, I could get 8 batches of 600mL out of one kit.
Be very careful to decant concentrates into small FULL bottles. E6 color developer has a component that cracks PET bottles.

Sirius Glass · Jun 28, 2021

Old Gregg said:
As I am researching JOBO processors, this thread scares the hell out of me. There are plenty of others if you search "uneven development JOBO". It's on photrio, on photo.net, lfp, everywhere...

People who have problems appear to be quite reasonable: they level their machines, experiment with chemical volume, pre-wash/not, different tank diameters, rotation speed (on CPP series), everything imaginable, and nothing helps. Meanwhile, plenty of people are having no issues.

How could this be? "Smells" like a common yet not obvious manufacturing defect.

I have never had uneven development in the Jobo processor. Then again I presoak all films except Kodak Tri-X when developing with XTOL or replenished XTOL.

btaylor · Jun 28, 2021

So true. Makes me a little nervous for when I fire up the ATL2+ that I purchased awhile ago. I have all the tanks and reels now. I’ll call The Darkroom Doctor after the plumbing is in to set it up. The guy I bought it from made big color transparencies for background projections for movie studios with it- so I hope he didn’t have problems! We shall see.

MattKing · Jun 29, 2021

At the risk of being difficult....
When I look at the photo of your nearly blank negatives, I see un-evenness that, at least in par could only reasonably result from un-evenness of exposure.
This is the photo I mean:

Note that the vertical areas of reduced density are adjacent to the space between the frames, and only there - not repeated anywhere in the middle of the frames.
I don't believe that is un-evenness which is development related, because I don't believe that there is any way that flow of developer could be affected by the location of the space between the frame.
I agree that the artifacts along the top could be due to development issues, but I find the narrow line along the top edge of the rebate to be interesting. That looks to me to be either an un-fixed area, or an area that has been light struck.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 29, 2021

xtol121 said:
Hi, and apologies for opening another "uneven development" thread. I have searched through tons of posts, but haven't been able to find a fix.

I recently purchased a Jobo CPE-3 + Lift kit with a 1520 tank. I have been getting really bad uneven development in any smooth toned areas of my image. I've attached a screenshot of images of a flat wall, and images from a roll out in the field where you can see how it affects the sky.

Here’s more info about the equipment and process:
Brand new 1520 tank, CPE-3 processor and Lift
Tried both plastic reels and the Hewes stainless reels
Tried 35mm 400TX, HP5, and P3200TMZ
Tried freshly mixed XTOL 1-1, XTOL Straight, DD-X developers
Tried solution volumes of 300ml, 400ml, 500ml, 600ml (mixed to proper dilutions or used straight)
Tried with 5 min pre-wet, tried without pre-wet
68º for 6, 8, and 10 minutes
Processor and tank on the lift are level, rotating during the entire process
2 different changing bags
2 different cameras

And still the problem persists. Has anyone experienced this, and more importantly has anyone fixed it? I've invested a lot of cash into this thing and I'd really love to get it working properly.

Thanks for any help!View attachment 257787 View attachment 257788

what speed is it rotating? In my experience, faster is better and larger solution volumes.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 29, 2021

mshchem said:
I use XTOL straight when using my Jobos. I've got 5 different machines I've acquired. That doesn't make me an expert. I have seen bromide drag, my theory is the straight XTOL has the capacity to deal with the agitation scheme Jobo uses.
I've developed a ton of film in good old Paterson tanks in XTOL 1:1, beautiful negatives.
I use the Jobo pretty much always now. CPP3, CPP2, Duolab or occasionally a couple CPE2 Plus units all have lifts. The little Duolab works great too.

if you ever want to sell your duolab, I’d be happy to take it. Those are great little machines.

Adrian Bacon · Jun 29, 2021

Old Gregg said:
@Sirius Glass I saw your similar comments in other "Uneven development with JOBO. Help!" threads. @Adrian Bacon also loves his JOBO setup. But people who are having issues also appear to be quite intelligent and tried every suggestion thrown at them, yet not a single thread came to the conclusion. The variable that separates "nothing works" and "works for me" people is still not identified. Here's a full list of suggestions that did not help anyone with uneven development issues, according to my research:

Trying 1500 and 2500 series tanks

Using more chemicals than JOBO recommends

Making sure the machine is level

Trying different rotation speeds

Always loading more than one reel

Pre-soak vs not

Again, I have never tried a JOBO processor, but reading these numerous threads (dating back to 2001 on photo.net!) I can think of two improbable causes: some units may be operating at speeds outside the normal range with rotation speed setting not working. Or maybe there's some resonance vibration phenomena causing weird liquid flows inside the tanks... I'm pulling these out of my arse, TBH. This is truly puzzling.

I primarily use a jobo Duolab, though I have other jobo machines, none with lifts, and I only use 1500 series tanks for film. Contrary to what other people may think, I don’t like the whole reversion thing that other jobos do, and I think it’s a source of many problems. If your tank is perfectly level and has max fluid capacity (something else I always do), there shouldn’t be any surge marks as the film is simply being rotated through the chemistry. I also never prewet.

Uneven Development w/ Jobo CPE-3 + Lift

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