US Shipping X-Ray Film

Does anyone know the x-ray requirements, or lack thereof, for the domestic US shipping companies? My concern is flying commercially and the usual confusion over whether TSA must cut open my undeveloped 120 film packets during hand inspection. I'd rather send them ahead. I won't trust the USPS, but UPS and FedUp, I mean FedEx, carry all my film purchases so they must not x-ray. Am I right?

Thanks

If I remember right Fed Ex does not x-ray film as long as they know that it is un-exposed film...

I never had any problem with any of the shipping companies. In fact, I always ship my film to be developed using USPS - but, always Priority Mail (I don't use regular mail).

Are you using Delta 3200? Other 120 film should be OK through TSA scanners for carry-on, but not those for checked luggage. If you are carrying too much to take into the cabin, you can usually carry it through security then gate check it. That's what I do when flying in those cute little Embraer regional jets.

Best,
Helen

Last spring I experienced the TSA method of cutting open my 120 Tech Pan foil wrappers to make sure it was film. I protested very politely, and they seemed empathetic. I wrongly stated that the introduction of air would accelerate the demise of an already doomed film. Regardless of whether the film could have endured the carry on x-rays, the agent said they were required to open anything they couldn't see. I asked very nicely "what if you just exposed my film? How do you handle sheet film?" The look I got was one of child-like confusion. Further inquiries to the TSA manager resulted in similar confusion. Upon my return, I consulted the TSA website. Again, no reference to opening film. Removal from the cannister, yes. A phone call to TSA resulted in a circular conversation of comical proportions. Twenty minutes of multiple consultations with the supervisor produced nothing.

This will no doubt generate responses noting my missing the obvious: ISO25 film is completely safe for carry on x-ray. Really? I don't care. I don't want to take chances. Am I supposed to trust the TSA's knowledge on highly complex x-ray specifications and operation? These are the same people who detained Catherine Stevens, the wife of Alaska Senator Ted Stevens. Why? Because Catherine can be shortened to Cat. And the notorious flake singer Cat Stevens is on the no fly list. Ergo my logic.

I digress.

I routinely have film sent to me from suppliers via UPS, FedX and DHL. I also send exposed film to labs via the same route. Never a problem.

USPS is another story.

jim appleyard said:

I routinely have film sent to me from suppliers via UPS, FedX and DHL. I also send exposed film to labs via the same route. Never a problem.

USPS is another story.

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Hi Jim,

I am curious as to the type of problems with USPS you have had, I use USPS all the time when mailing and receiving film and have never noted any problems, so I would be interested in hearing others war stories, so I can keep a watch out.

Thanks

Dave

I have had FedX fog motion picture film on three occasions in fifteen years.
The pattern of fogging from Xray machines on motion picture film is very discernable. It is a stripe of fog across the roll that results in a pronounced pulsing in the blacks when the negative is developed and projected in a telecine. It is markedly different than the pulsing caused by HMI flicker.

On inquiry, fedX stated that they do Xray random packages. These incidents were both pre and post 9-11. Pre 9/11 they stated that thier Xray procedures would not damage motion picture film. The lab and Kodak rep came to the conclusion that the film had spent a prolonged time under the beam, probably during a break or while waiting for a supervisor to examine the screen.

All of the unexposed and latent image motion picture film that I ship now carries the label

"Motion picture film. Do not Xray. If Xray is mandatory, stop shipment, and contact shipper."

I have not had a shipment stopped, nor has there been any further problems with fogging.

FWIW.

Satinsnow said:

I am curious as to the type of problems with USPS you have had, I use USPS all the time when mailing and receiving film and have never noted any problems, so I would be interested in hearing others war stories, so I can keep a watch out.

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I think it depends upon how the mail is sent. If the mail goes on a commercial airplane, it goes through the x-ray. I heard somewhere that USPS uses Fed-Ex for priority mail shipments, so this doesn't go on commercial flights.

I've never had a problem with USPS, but I ALWAYS use Priority or Exprss Mail, never Air Mail.

Remember, the TSA staff is committed to making the airways safe from the bad guys... but they aren't geniuses. Go look at the TSA employment site and you'll see that the requirements for becoming a screener are not terribly challenging. The pay, too, is commensurately modest. Screeners are GS 5 to 9 positions.

The screening supervisors are expected to be more knowledgable, but they are the low end of "mid-grade" civil service - GS 11. I don't think we can expect too much from them, especially any specific knowledge about film, etc.

TSA screening personnel don't seem to know much more than what (little) they've been told in tehir training; same seems true for the supervisors They certainly aren't willing to "take our word" on what they could/should be doing WRT film inspection.

Arguing with TSA, or even trying to have an intelligent conversation, is often fruitless. They don't seem to have in-depth knowledge of film, fogging, or other potential x-ray damage. They don't seem to be empowered to alter inspection procedures that they are taught (whether those procedures are right or wrong). They aren't empowered to inform us (the fliers) with rationale for any of the procedures... in fact, they would probably claim that it potentially reduces their security posture to tell us why they do what they do.

(I asked once why they make us take of shoes one day, but not the next... they told me that they couldn't discuss the details of their procedures but I didn't have to take off my shoes at all... they can, alternatively, subject me to the "detailed security screening". Fearing a strip search by a big, burly, wild-eyed TSA screener who, incidently, kept snapping his rubber gloves and sporting a weird grin while telling me this... I put all of my film on the x-ray belt and almost offered to let them blast it twice.)

I must say, however, that there is quite a bit of evidence available on the web indicating that the x-ray/CT machine manufactures, such as Rapiscan and Invision, have participated in, both, internal R&D and industry studies to understand the magnitude ofthe problem, *try* minimizing the effects of this screening technology... or provide fair warning.

Me personally... I ask for hand inspection every time I fly (and it's been WAY too often over the past few years)... but quickly volunteer to put my film through the X-ray machine at the first hint of a screener desiring to open a LF film box or the foil wrappers of MF film. I've never seen evidence of any damage... but maybe my day has not yet come.

[disclaimer... I'm not defending any moronic behavior of TSA screeners or their supervisors. I've had good,and questionable, experiences with TSA screening and try to keep an open mind. The qualification/salary information I mentioned above comes from the TSA web site and I haven't verified accuracy.]

I just came back from a trip to New Orleans.

On the way down I took along 25 rolls of Tri-X, which had been taken out of their canister and stored in a clear ziplock bag. The TSA inspector at LAX took one look at them and waved them through without an xray or close inspection. I hope that was a fluke.

I shipped the rest of my film (APX100, Tri-X, Delta 3200) to my hotel, and back home, via FedEx Ground. I spoke to both FedEx and UPS and they said that they randomly xray anything that goes on an airplane. FedEx claimed that they didn't xray ground shipments. As an extra precaution I labeled the box as follows: DO NOT X-RAY! EXPOSED FILM! HANDINSPECT IF NEEDED. CONTACHT SHIPPER IF NEEDED. (and my cell phone number)

On the way back, TSA in New Orleans swabbed and closely examined the 10 odd rolls I took on the plane with me. Once again the rolls had been taken out of their canister and were stored in a ziplock bag. This sort of inspection is what I hoped to encounter at LAX.


Cheers,
Harry Lime

JBrunner said:

... The lab and Kodak rep came to the conclusion that the film had spent a prolonged time under the beam, probably during a break or while waiting for a supervisor to examine the screen. ...

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It sounds more like they used a CTX machine to screen your package rather than regular X-ray. The banding you describe is CLASSIC damage from CTX.

The machines used for carry-on baggage (and most industrial mail screening, if/when they do it) puts out a small dose of x-ray for a very short duration. Most of the time when the screeners are looking at the contents... or waiting for the supervisor... they are looking at a stored display (or sofware enhamncements of that display) not subjecting the bag/film to continued or higher-dose x-ray exposure.

It sounds to me like the lab and Lodak rep might need to brush up on the screening technologies and read some of the specs and data sheets that the screening machine manufacturers make easily available on the web.

Good advice, all. USPS is out of the question. If I order UPS or FedEx ground, does it really stay on the ground?

BrianShaw said:

It sounds more like they used a CTX machine to screen your package rather than regular X-ray. The banding you describe is CLASSIC damage from CTX.

The machines used for carry-on baggage (and most industrial mail screening, if/when they do it) puts out a small dose of x-ray for a very short duration. Most of the time when the screeners are looking at the contents... or waiting for the supervisor... are display/enhancements of the imagery, not continued or higher-dose, x-ray exposures.

It sounds to me like the lab and Lodak rep might need to brush up on the screening technologies and read some of the specs and data sheets that the screening machine manufacturers make easily available on the web.

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At the time,(pre 9/11) it was a rare problem, and nobody knew much in regard to what machines shippers were using, and FedX at the time was not at all forthcoming. I do agree with your assessment. I have never experienced any problems with the carry on scanners, other than that I know more about the published policies than the TSA robots do, in regard to film. However, insistence usually is more trouble than it's worth, so if they won't hand inspect, I let them Xray away. Its different when shipping through a carrier, and if they Xray, it WILL destroy your film.

When will the MRI scanners come out that destroy digital images, but leave unexposed film untouched?

The TSA manual states that, if requested, agents must hand inspect "special film". Their definition of special is as ridiculous as their success in screening for real hazards.

Dead Link Removed

Suffice it to say it is easy to qualify for a hand inspection.

Incidentally, FedEx does not x-ray ground shipments, but cautions against exposure to other shipped items that are highly magnetic. Does magnetism affect film?

UPS subjects its ground shipment to random x-rays, and advises a film/no x-ray label.

ChrisW said:

Good advice, all. USPS is out of the question. If I order UPS or FedEx ground, does it really stay on the ground?

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Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

I can't buy color sheet film where I live, I have to mail order it. I also can't process color sheet film where I live, again I mail order it. I have no choice except to ship by air - ground takes about 2 months (it literally comes by boat). I use various companies when ordering sheet film, and I ALWAYS use USPS Priority when shipping film for processing. I have never had, in 8 years of living here, any film fogged due to shipping.

Satinsnow said:

Hi Jim,

I am curious as to the type of problems with USPS you have had, I use USPS all the time when mailing and receiving film and have never noted any problems, so I would be interested in hearing others war stories, so I can keep a watch out.

Thanks

Dave

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I've had packages and letters that were very late getting to where they needed to be or they never arrived at all. Plus, I've had things damaged and the USPS won't make good on it unless you take out insurance. At least UPS includes $100.00 worth of insurance from the start.

The USPS reminds me of the old joke: "What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?" "Don't know and don't care!"

jim appleyard said:

I've had packages and letters that were very late getting to where they needed to be or they never arrived at all. Plus, I've had things damaged and the USPS won't make good on it unless you take out insurance. At least UPS includes $100.00 worth of insurance from the start.

The USPS reminds me of the old joke: "What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?" "Don't know and don't care!"

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Okay,

I was just wondering, I have shipped over 7,000 packages with USPS in the last two years, and had very little problem, every once in a while a shipment will get lost or delayed, but that is a big exception, were as, with UPS, I run about a 19% loss or damage rate, and I won't even talk about FedEx, them guys screw it up most of the time.

Thanks again for your answer.

Dave

I guess the USPS is looked upon badly by some people. I am biased because I work there. I work during the night on the automation that reads and sorts the packages (70-100,000pcs per shift each night 7 nights a week). I keep hearing about the one letter that got lost or the damage. If you consider the vast quantity of mail that gets processed, and how very poorly some of it is packed and addressed to begin with, the percentage is not bad.

Rats, now you all can blame me for your missing packages..

JHannon said:

Rats, now you all can blame me for your missing packages..

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No blame here, USPS is my main shipper, where I normally end up having problems is once it leaves the country the other country postal services can be a real pain, I shipped 4 packages to Canada on the 26th of January and 3 showed up in 7 days or less and the 4th just showed up Yesterday, go figure!

Dave

Satinsnow said:

...and I won't even talk about FedEx, them guys screw it up most of the time.
...

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Is that FedEx Ground or the real FedEx?

Best,
Helen

Helen B said:

Is that FedEx Ground or the real FedEx?

Best,
Helen

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Hi Helen,

I have had nothing but problems with both of their services, I don't know if it is the remote location I live in or what, I keep hearing others have good luck with them, but not me...

Yikes

Dave

Satinsnow said:

Okay,

I was just wondering, I have shipped over 7,000 packages with USPS in the last two years, and had very little problem, every once in a while a shipment will get lost or delayed, but that is a big exception, were as, with UPS, I run about a 19% loss or damage rate, and I won't even talk about FedEx, them guys screw it up most of the time.

Thanks again for your answer.

Dave

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Odd. I've had no problems with the private shipping folks, but you have. I have problems with USPS, but you don't. Is there a middle ground?

I realize that not everyone is the USPS is a Barney Fife, but the service here could be better.

But, whatever works for ya!

I can't wait for the USPS Farley Building here in NYC to be turned into a basketball stadium. You'll have to stand in line for 45 minutes to take a shot, then just as you get to the head of the line a wooden door will slam shut over the basket.

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.

I read up on the x-ray check before going to France last fall. I finally just took my 120 and put it in my Lowepro backpack and just sent it through the scanner. I went through US, Canada, Paris, Canada. I took ISO 25, 100, 400. All of the film developed normally and not fogged. I decided to just put it through because I took an unopened box to Houston and asked for a hand check. They wanted to open it up and see the film. We argued and argued then I just put the box of JandC 400 5x7 through the scanner and was done with it. It's not worth having to open film. Do you even want someone opening it in a changing bag and going through the sheets or rolls? It's too damm bad that there isn't a preflight container that the film can be checked in with to avoid even the possibility of radiation. I would like to put a radiation detector in with some and see the dose given and see how the dose changes from machine to machine. I bet these are poorly calibrated and maintained. It's hard enough in the medical field where the machines are used on humans.