What do I need to make lith prints

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Leaving aside the fact that I'm still learning basic darkroom printing at 70, now I'd like to make some lith prints. The look seems to be unique....when it works. I'll be making plenty of mistakes, so figure that into the equation.

During the pandemic I made a LOT of prints, somewhere between 150 and 200, and there's probably 20 or 30 11x14's that are good enough for a portfolio. The idea is to see how a lith print looks compared to those prints before even thinking of showing something to a gallery.

What do I need to purchase initially, figuring in the waste of materials during the trial and error learning process? I'm not concerned about how the prints are made right now, I just want the necessary materials handy when it's time to try it.
 
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radiant

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It isn't that hard what is said about it. I think it is pretty easy.

Just buy some Moersch EasyLith and FOMA Fomatone MG 131 and you are getting lith prints. From your normal exposure just add two stops more time (for example your normal 8 seconds comes 16 seconds and then to 32 seconds for two stops) It is not that accurate. Just overexpose the print heavily.

Make sure your developer is over 20 degC, maybe a bit more. Not that important, but warmer developer speeds up the process. I usually mix EasyLith to 15:1 ratio to keep the development time reasonable. Remember that it might take over 10 minutes to the snatching point. Just be patient.

Snatching the print; you will learn it by trial-and-error. Get a red bike LED light for examination during development if you want.

You really do not need anything else than that.
 
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That's great info. Thanks very much. I printed your directions, and will try this before I move. Since I like things much warmer than normal, getting the temps up is no problem. Read somewhere that the lith likes even hotter than 20C, (have no idea if this is true), and warmer temps seem to speed up the process. Now that I know what to get, it's better if I just do it, and see what happens at different temps.

I have tried a little snatching (small-kind) a few times w/ regular prints. Just overexpose w/ the enlarger, then grab the print out of the developer when it looks 'right. You know, they looked no better or no worse than the usual exposures.
 

MattKing

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I have tried a little snatching (small-kind) a few times in the darkroom in the past w/ regular prints. Just overexpose the heck out of things w/ the enlarger, then grab the print out of the developer when it looks 'right. You know, they looked no better and no worse than the usual exposures.
This tells me that you would be better off using longer development times for your "usual" exposures (which themselves should end up being shorter).
When the manufacturer recommends a range of 1-3 minutes, I tend to like better the prints developed for a time closer to the 3 minute time.
 
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Exactly. Thanks for pointing this out Matt. Initially, I was not leaving the prints in the developer long enough. What with one paper manufacturer saying this, and the developer maker usually saying something different, I finally just tried different methods until one worked consistently. I was out of the darkroom for a long time, never did much until now, so my printing knowledge could fit in a thimble.

There's a LOT to learn and remember if you want good things to happen. Being acclimated to working in art studios and making image decisions that are viewed immediately in good light, it's been much harder in the photography game due to the time delay before you see an image, and the lack of sight during the process. Lith printing may suit me better.

There's also that 'happy accident' thing w/ lith, it doesn't sound like the process is as exacting as regular prints. The photos I try to get pristine, I shouldn't be faced w/ that crazy idea w/ lith. It's more about the image, any way you can get it.
 
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faberryman

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To make lith prints, you need paper that will lith, lith developer, a willingness to experiment, and patience.
 

mooseontheloose

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As mentioned above, the only thing you'll need beyond regular darkroom stuff is lith developer (Moersch Easy Lith is a good place to start) and paper that is known to lith easily without any other issues (like Fomatone MG 131 or 132). Once you get comfortable with that, you can start exploring other papers, developers, and techniques. In terms of developer temp, I always start hot - somewhere between 30-40C to keep times manageable - that means prints that I can pull out of the developer between 4-10 minutes. Once longer than ten minutes I either make a new batch or add more hot water/dev to the tray.

Exposure: the less exposure you give your prints, the more contrasty they will be. So 1-2 stops overexposure will give you more contrasty prints than 2-5 stops overexposure. A lot depends on the subject of your print. The reason you want to overexpose is to get details in the midtones and highlights - if they're not there in the exposure, they won't show up in the developing tray, no matter how long you keep the print in there. The blacks are going to come up no matter what, due to how lith developer works. What you are exposing for is the highlights (if you want them).

Also - you don't need to work in whole stops for overexposure once you've started at the base exposure of 2 stops over - it's worth trying 1/2 or even 1/4 stops if you want to make more subtle adjustments. Doing selective (dare I say it - split grade) printing over different parts of the print can help you out a lot. For example, with this print (see below) in my gallery, the base exposure (for the darkest part of the print) was 1.5 stops overexposed. After that, I had to selectively burn in every other part of the print. The lightest parts had 5-7 stops additional burning, just so I could get some details. However - to start with I wouldn't worry about it so much, just go with straight over-exposure, once you've done 5 or 10 or 20 prints you'll start to see where selective overexposure can help your print.

alcazar_web3.jpg

Developing: Put the paper image side down as fast as you can to make sure it is evenly covered. Keep agitating the tray for the entire development time as you need to the developer to do its magic. I always use gloved hands (nitrile gloves) to handle my print since tongs can leave marks on the print, but it's up to you how you want to do it. If you want to save time, you can develop two prints back to back and just constantly flip them throughout to provide agitation and development. This is useful if you are looking for consistency OR you want to experiment by having 2 prints at the same exposure but different dev. times, or 2 prints with different exposures but equal development times. If you can spare the paper, it's worth pulling prints (ideally with the same exposure) at different times - too early, too late, etc. so that you can see what the effects will be once the print has dried down. Depending on the paper and the developer/dilution, you'll probably get 5-12 good prints before you need to top up the used developer with a fresh one, or just make a new batch (usually only happens with long sessions). Some papers may exhibit pepper fogging (little black grains throughout the print) the older the developer gets.

Things to remember: the more diluted your developer is (1:20-1:50 dilution), the longer the time will be. You'll also get more colourful effects from extreme dilution, less so with stronger mixes. Temperature also affects colour - the hotter the developer, the more colour will likely appear (although again depends on developer and paper). As Wolfgang Moersch wrote somewhere here on APUG in the archives, less exposure means you'll have a stronger dilution, more over-exposure means you'll have a weaker dilution (there's a correlation between the two). Also, each subsequent print will slow down in the developer - the first one may come up at 4 minutes, the 10th one may take 20. I find that once I can first see the image just slowly beginning to emerge, that I can expect to pull the print in about double that time. This is good to know if you are waiting and waiting and waiting - if you are waiting for a really long time, probably the developer is either too cold, too old, or too dilute. For example, a paper that I like to use here in Japan is called Fujibro - at 20C it will take 30-60 minutes for an image to appear, but at 40C it takes 5 minutes.
Golden Rule (as per Tim Rudman): Highlights are controlled by exposure. Shadows are controlled by development. The highlights will come up as they are based on the over-exposure. A successful print is one where you look at the part of the print where you want your black/shadow details to be clear and fully developed, but not so much so that they start spreading to the surrounding area (which is what will happen if you keep the print in the developer too long). Pull the print when the blacks are where you want them (not the highlights). Once you see what you like, you need to pull the print. Don't wait for the developer to drip off the print, put it straight into the stop.

Fixing: Here is where you want to keep the fix time to the minimum amount, since the fix will "bleach" your highlights if left in too long. I always do a 2-bath fix for exactly the recommended time (if it's 2 minutes, one minute in each bath). You'll find that the images will lighten, or "fix up" and that you'll lose the colour that you had in the developer. This also happens with regular B&W but is much less dramatic (I only notice it because I've done so much lith printing). Don't worry if you think you've lost your highlights, in all likelihood they'll reappear in the dry-down. When I did my workshop with Tim Rudman, once our prints went through the initial wash we would quickly wipe down and dry the prints with a hair dryer to check the dry-down, so we could make adjustments before the next print. You don't always have to do that, but it's worth considering for trickier prints.

After washing your prints, dry them carefully. If face-down on screens, beware that if you do future work on the print (toning, etc.) you may find the screen marks will show up. If you dry face up, make sure that no water pools on the print in any way, as those will also show up in dry-down or toning. (As Tim Rudman says, your "sins" will find you out in lith printing). I haven't had the former happen to me, but the latter definitely did.

If you have prints that are too dark or too light, keep them. You may find that with bleaching, toning, or second-pass lith that you can get something better out of them. It's worth keeping the mistakes for testing toners before putting the good prints in.

It's worth looking at other photographers who've done lith for inspiration, even if the papers and developers they used are no longer available. Of course both Tim Rudman and Wolfgang Moersch have information on their own websites, but there are many others you can look at as well. The lith printing group on Facebook also has a lot of people doing interesting work there.

I always like Skip Smith's work with lith - he used very old, aged developer get to a lot of texture and detail into his prints.
Stuart Redler's work, especially his arches series, shows what you can do with a more contrasty style
Anton Corbijn's book Star Trax showcases wonderful portraits of the rich and famous done in lith (as printed by Mike Spry)

EDIT: it's worth keeping notes when you first start. Even if you just mark each print (1,2,3,etc) and write the details in a notebook, including overexposure and time in the developer, it will help you understand the relationship between all the factors above and how to possibly fix things that you don't like. But honestly, lith printing is like jazz - everytime you do it it can be a little bit different, or completely different, but it'll be interesting. Despite everything I wrote here, it's very freeing and you can just go with the flow and see what comes up each time the print goes in the developer. Don't be afraid to experiment.
 
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radiant

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Put the paper image side down as fast as you can to make sure it is evenly covered. Keep agitating the tray for the entire development time as you need to the developer to do its magic.

Great tips Rachelle. However on this one I disagree; I haven't ever noticed any need to put the paper especially fast into developer. By placing paper picture side down is enough - with a gentle push from the middle of the paper. Also I did a test between "stand" development and constant agitation and I couldn't notice any difference in time. You can leave the print alone in the print after first minute agitations. I think this tip is really helpful because it is quite a work to agitate a tray for 10 minutes straight.
 

mooseontheloose

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Great tips Rachelle. However on this one I disagree; I haven't ever noticed any need to put the paper especially fast into developer. By placing paper picture side down is enough - with a gentle push from the middle of the paper. Also I did a test between "stand" development and constant agitation and I couldn't notice any difference in time. You can leave the print alone in the print after first minute agitations. I think this tip is really helpful because it is quite a work to agitate a tray for 10 minutes straight.

I guess for me it's about starting with well-known and established techniques - once one is comfortable with the process it's fine to change things up, but if things go wrong it can be hard to pinpoint if developing technique is also altered. I thought I used to put my paper fairly quickly into the developer, but when I did the workshop with Tim Rudman, it wasn't nearly quick enough - he practically shoved the print straight into the developer. Same with agitation - I do a very light, but consistent agitation, but for him it was not nearly enough and he was constantly coming by to encourage me to rock my tray more. Of course I went back to my standard ways after the workshop. :wink:

I think you have a valid point about keeping the print in the developer without agitation - from what I understand, that's kind of how lith got discovered by certain printers - leaving prints in the trays for far too long and then coming back into the darkroom and discovering magic. But I still think it's good technique to do constant agitation, for me, anyway, it's not like I can do anything else during that time. I need to wait and see how that print turns out before going back to the enlarger to expose another (if I'm still trying to narrow down exposure times). However, the next time I'm in the darkroom I may do my own tests and see what happens.
 

radiant

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I guess for me it's about starting with well-known and established techniques

That is really wise and suggested way for beginners too.

But I still think it's good technique to do constant agitation, for me, anyway, it's not like I can do anything else during that time.

It is quite a mindfullnes practice. But few times is enough for me. I put a tray over the development tray and escape quickly from my darkroom to get some water, maybe surf a bit and have a bit of walk. Maybe look at the negatives, arrange stuff etc. I still might spent 5 minutes anyways next to the tray for snatching anyways..
 

Rich Ullsmith

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Red light and gloves. It's helpful to know when black is black. I usually print full frame so the border and sprocket holes are there to compare.

Warning: lith can be addictive. The schedule of positive reinforcement is the same as gambling. The intermittent jackpots keep you coming back.
 

mooseontheloose

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Red light and gloves. It's helpful to know when black is black. I usually print full frame so the border and sprocket holes are there to compare.

Warning: lith can be addictive. The schedule of positive reinforcement is the same as gambling. The intermittent jackpots keep you coming back.

I do the same if I can - borders will come up before anything else and it's a good baseline to see how the rest of the blacks come up. Unfortunately I'm not always great at having level horizons, which means I can't put the full border in (I'm too lazy to recreate them in most cases).

Lith is definitely addictive, and once you get used to it, it can be hard going back to straight B&W printing - it always feels so flat to me, and takes a while before I can "see" in normal black and white again.
 

winger

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Warning: lith can be addictive. The schedule of positive reinforcement is the same as gambling. The intermittent jackpots keep you coming back.

This is very true!

And I'll add to not get discouraged when (not if) some don't work. I've had days that every print was wicked cool and days that none would see daylight. Most have been somewhere in between. When I do conventional printing, nearly every print is acceptable on some level (even if just to figure out what needs to be changed), but I've had lith prints that went straight from the fix to the trash - not even worth washing.
 

Ron789

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Just buy some Moersch EasyLith and FOMA Fomatone MG 131 and you are getting lith prints. .....
.......
Snatching the print; you will learn it by trial-and-error. Get a red bike LED light for examination during development if you want.

I second the choice of Moersch Easylith and Fomatone 131 paper; works like a charm!
Regarding "snatching" the print: I found that it is perfectly safe to turn the white light on during the final stage of the development to judge the print. This ofcourse fully exposes the paper but since lith development starts very slow and takes a long time the exposure has no impact on the print. I sometimes turn the white light on 1 minute before the expected "snatch" moment and leave it on during the stop bath and fix. Funny: you'll see the colour tones change the moment the print goes into the fix. Unfortunately, the colours are much more diverse and lively during the final development and stop. After some 10 seconds in the fix many colours disappear.
 

gphoto120

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I’m just beginning to lith print with EasyLith and Fomatone 131….my first images are much too orange colored in the highlights. I’m looking for a more peachy or buff tone highlights. The prints have a pronounced grainy lith look in the shadows which is fine, but the orange is not what I want in the highlights …..I used 15A : 25B : 1000ml dilution. Should I be using a stronger or more of the developer or the opposite dilute even more? Any suggestions appreciated…
 

mooseontheloose

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I’m just beginning to lith print with EasyLith and Fomatone 131….my first images are much too orange colored in the highlights. I’m looking for a more peachy or buff tone highlights. The prints have a pronounced grainy lith look in the shadows which is fine, but the orange is not what I want in the highlights …..I used 15A : 25B : 1000ml dilution. Should I be using a stronger or more of the developer or the opposite dilute even more? Any suggestions appreciated…

Even though I love Fomatone, for many prints/subjects I do not like the salmon/orange colour that I often get with it. Your dilution looks alright to me - how hot was the developer? More heat will usually ramp up the colour. For myself, I've dropped using OB in any way since that intensifies the colour, and I often have to dump my developer after 5 prints since the colour gets too strong at that point - usually the first 1-3 are the best. Another option to consider is bleach and toners - they can change the colours, which could be another way to get rid of that orange cast.

Photo 1: Foma 132 - I flip between liking the orange colour in the bib and not liking it. For online displays I often reduce the colour to make it a little more palatable, but the original print looks like this (or darker)
Photo 2: Foma 132 - quite orangey, but it works because of the subject matter
Photo 3: Also Foma 132, but this was developed cooler than usual for me (probably around 20-22C) and is one of the first prints out of the developer.
mara_buddha.jpg lfg_skull_web.jpg weeping-statue_web.jpg
 
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-chrille-

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I am going to try lith printing for the first time and I am wondering if anyone here knows if these papers work for lith?

Probably will try all of the papers with time but which is the best to start with? Usually I use modern Ilford Multigrade RC and fiber for conventional BW but I've heard these work poorly for lith. Developer is Moersch EasyLith.

. A478C442-2E5D-49F3-B083-111155A9835D.jpeg 6D916648-DD38-42C8-AD40-A443611AAE78.jpeg
8EB90865-6267-42C6-B8D0-02C2F208F002.jpeg 0614237D-CDCF-4380-8A7F-F746911A1A40.jpeg FE88B2E2-8A4A-42FC-BBE9-F7B1D802C256.jpeg
 

koraks

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Virtually every paper can be made to 'lith', with the exception of a few developer-incorporated papers. But the results vary dramatically. 'Unfit' papers tend to give massive peppercorn-like grain, develop uncontrolled blotches, produce little to no color and/or the rate of infectious development proceeds asymptotically with the snatch point being very elusive. The good news of all this is that in all likelihood most of the papers you have there can be used for testing and they will lith in one way or another. With second pass lith, the success rate will increase and the process will also be easier to control, so that's a reasonable alternative if regular lith doesn't pan out.

However, on my mind it would make sense to get a pack of known-good lithable paper so you can get the basics down. Once you get the hang of it, try whatever you can get your hands on and enjoy the results. The other way around will also work, but may be much more frustrating.
 

Don_ih

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The Ilfobrom, the Orwo, and Kodak should all lith very well.

The Ilfospeed is likely only good for burning.
 

-chrille-

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Virtually every paper can be made to 'lith', with the exception of a few developer-incorporated papers. But the results vary dramatically. 'Unfit' papers tend to give massive peppercorn-like grain, develop uncontrolled blotches, produce little to no color and/or the rate of infectious development proceeds asymptotically with the snatch point being very elusive. The good news of all this is that in all likelihood most of the papers you have there can be used for testing and they will lith in one way or another. With second pass lith, the success rate will increase and the process will also be easier to control, so that's a reasonable alternative if regular lith doesn't pan out.

However, on my mind it would make sense to get a pack of known-good lithable paper so you can get the basics down. Once you get the hang of it, try whatever you can get your hands on and enjoy the results. The other way around will also work, but may be much more frustrating.

Thank you👍 What lithable paper do you recommend me to start with that is still in production and available?
 

koraks

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That would be my own choice, yes, because of the convenience aspect. Current production Fomatone MG glossy still liths AFAIK. But if you happen upon a box of let's say Forte Polywarmtone, I wouldn't hesitate to use that, for instance.
 

-chrille-

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Has anyone here tried Ilford Multigrade RC Warmtone paper for lith? I know Ilford Multigrade FB Warmtone paper have semi-lith qualities.
 

Prest_400

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Some fantastic insights in this thread, while I have been lith printing since 2020 and looked around, I don't recall reading this!

That would be my own choice, yes, because of the convenience aspect. Current production Fomatone MG glossy still liths AFAIK. But if you happen upon a box of let's say Forte Polywarmtone, I wouldn't hesitate to use that, for instance.
About Foma paper, the only heads up is that there was an issue with some batches that had a modification affecting Lith.

I started Lith because my photo club has heaps of old paper that is too fogged for normal printing... So it was enticing being able to use it with the only requirement to get Lith developer; a very modest and accessible change compared to other alt processes.

I could try Polywarmtone when I found a few sheets of it, wonderful colour and gradations that made it beautiful for portraiture.
Adox has polywarmtone as emulsion, unfortunately too impractical for me but paraphrasing a resource in Moersch's website that I can't find now, it liths like Forte's version. Haven't unfortunately seen more than a tiny scan and that sentence.

Has anyone here tried Ilford Multigrade RC Warmtone paper for lith? I know Ilford Multigrade FB Warmtone paper have semi-lith qualities.
Not myself, I do know there is "ModernlithEZ" modified Lith process so the Ilford Multigrade papers work in it.
Ilford MGWT (warmtone) is classed as semi-lith by Rudman but Bob Carnie is a proponent of it in Lith. The point is being aware that it heavily changes in the fix.
 

-chrille-

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I just added 400 sheets of, expired but in unopened boxes, Kodak Polymax II RC and Kodak Kodabrome II RC. Will try it for lith prints with Moerse Easylith.
 

-chrille-

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Tried the Kodak Polymax II RC with Moersch Easylith yesterday. Actually, it is my first lith print ever. It took 8 sheets of 18x24cm before any colour developed. I have saved som old brown for next session. Not the easiest process to master but very fun and addictive.


C0DDD993-1635-4036-822C-C0DBD5D83610.jpeg
 
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