Wisdom of Buying a Leica M3

[Richard Jepsen]

I looked at eBay and found 339 results for a M3 camera. The majority of these are in Japan with less than accurate condition ratings.

I’m in my last years of shooting and enlarging B&W film. I have the itch to try a M3 largely for the finder and classic design. I’ve owned several Ms

If I make a purchase I’m concern there will not be any demand when I end wet photography in 3 or 4 years.

Assuming demand will be weak what type of M3 would make sense to buy that retains value?

1. Average condition….90% of M3s fall into this category with a price range of $1200-1500 USD.
2. Excellent ++ to Mint -. Clean top plate, no finder issues, needs minor covering repair.
a. Within the #2 category a body with a CLA
b. An overhauled well executed matt black repaint body…..advantage is its overhauled. Cost goes up to $2,900.
c. A 1956-1957 DS transition (lower numbers and interesting story) or a SS.

My gut tells me the cleanest body with a fresh overhaul will have the highest demand. Who knows on the price.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Since that is your heart's desire you should buy the Leica M3. You have spent much of your adult life earning money to pay for things others thought that they needed or at least wanted. Now is the time in your life to get those things you want and need. If you will use it and enjoy it, then go ahead and buy it. That is what my long time girl friend always tells me, so of course I would never tell her that she is wrong.

Also make sure that the seller will either accept returns or pay for any CLAs or adjustments if needed.

 

[Pioneer]

I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, but if I were to go looking for an M3 I would have someone like Don Goldberg, Sherry Krauter or Youxin Ye go find one and overhaul it for me.

I wouldn't personally buy an M3 myself but would go pick up an M-A instead. Much newer camera with better viewfinder IMHO. But...you want the M3 for the experience and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[logan2z]

I'd personally go for something in the 2/2a category of the SS variety - ideally something with a serial # over 1 000 000. And I'd buy from a reputable source of such cameras such as Leica Store Miami
(no affiliation, just a happy customer). Many of their cameras have been CLAd by DAG or overhauled by Wetzlar Germany. That means you'll pay a premium but you'll get something worry-free.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

If one buys a M you would have better luck selling if one of the US techs did a overhaul. Two of them are near retirement.

I’m looking for a fun factor but I don't want to throw money away.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Given that Leica is now selling 10 times as many film cameras as they did 8 years ago, I think your worry about the value of an M3 in 3-5 years from now is misplaced. And to be honest, if that's a concern, rather than the joy and experience of using the camera and the images it will let you produce, then it's probably not the camera for you. 99% of cameras are tools to be used, not collector pieces.

 

[blee1996]

A clean (but not mint) and CLA'd SS M3 should be easy to buy and sell at the right price. And if you are not in a big hurry, I would recommend to buy from fellow photographers on photrio/RFF/FredMiranda/local instead of eBay.

I bought my SS M3 (clean user, over 1M serial number, and CLA'd by Youxin) on RFF 10 years ago, and it is still working perfectly. And I'm quite sure I can easily sell it at a price that will cover both my cost and inflation.

 

[cliveh]

Are you sure you would not prefer an M2?

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Problem with this is that there is a huge collector's factor involved. This plays a huge factor on the price of Leica cameras. If I wanted a M3, I would go for an average condition one that had been overhauled by someone well know. My guess is that those will keep their value more or less stable.

 

[cliveh]

The value is irrelevant, as what you are buying is a precision instrument with superb design which is unsurpassed by any 35mm camera ever made.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

How do you know the condition descriptions were "less than accurate"? Sounds like you're making an assumption. Based on what?

 

[4season]

I'd guess that a few years from now you could resell for +/- $300 of today's purchase price, so maybe you make lunch money in resale, or at worst, it winds up being a cheap "rental".

3rd party black paint has become sort of commonplace, and I dunno that it will gain you any premium in resale.

Don't count on recovering money spent on getting the camera serviced.

Really rare or exceptional examples of the M3 are best left to serious collectors, because the moment you attempt to use them, they will inevitably become ever so slightly worn, and this can have a big impact on resale values.

 

[Hassasin]

The premise upon which this purchase is to be made is just not right to me. And there is no way to tell how today’s and YOUR price will relate to one a few years from now. Seems like you want to try an M3 but want to be sure, whatever the price, it will sell for at least as much in a few years. I see no joy in trying with this approach.

Are you going to be kicking yourself later on when what you spend today will give you say 75% return when you sell it?

Not being an M shooter I can’t comment on which, but if I were to want one, it would not be purchased with the baggage of future sale.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

Three years ago I sold my MF gear and a MP purchased in 2003. I replaced the MP with a less expensive mint M5. I wanted to downsize while there was still a market and have fun with the M5.

I plan to buy, use and resell due to my age. What type M3 has the highest demand and allows for a graceful exit. When I hit 80 I’ll be divested of the expensive stuff while keeping my worthless SRT 101 bought in 1967.

 

[GregY]

Three years ago I sold my MF gear and a MP purchased in 2003. I replaced the MP with a less expensive mint M5. I wanted to downsize while there was still a market and have fun with the M5.

I plan to buy, use and resell due to my age. What type M3 has the most appeal allowing a graceful exit.

Most graceful.... IMO single stroke with serial # over 1,000,000..... in cleanish undented condition. Chrome. I'm not a fan of non-original repaints.

 

[250swb]

Three years ago I sold my MF gear and a MP purchased in 2003. I replaced the MP with a less expensive mint M5. I wanted to downsize while there was still a market and have fun with the M5.

I plan to buy, use and resell due to my age. What type M3 has the highest demand and allows for a graceful exit. When I hit 80 I’ll be divested of the expensive stuff while keeping my worthless SRT 101 bought in 1967.

When I read your opening post I had to do a double take and check the date, it reads like a pessimistic posting from 2002 about the end of film photography. There are however more types of 35mm film available now than there was back then, and it may not be sold in such vast quantities, and it may not all be available from the local camera shop, but everybody else's optimism seems to be directly at odds with your assessment of where film photography will be in three years time.

So, the M3. There won't be 339 M3 cameras available to buy. The Japanese dealers while not being deceitful often have more than one moniker and while advertising the camera twice they sell it once. You need to be aware and factor in your fear tolerance that cameras and lenses from Japan sometimes have fungus, and while descriptions are mostly accurate from Japanese dealers cameras can be described as excellent 'considering there is a bit of fungus'. So already there aren't really 339 cameras worth choosing from, so now you start to look at fungus free cameras from the USA or Europe which is pretty much where everybody else is looking and this limit to the marketplace makes an M3 relatively rare in good condition. Just as a good M3 will be in three years time, rare, but without the decline in demand you anticipate.

The limiting factor with the M3 is in itself, not a decline in film photography. They are getting increasingly difficult to repair while at the same time need more repairs because many are coming up for their first service in sixty years. These factors plus any cosmetic problems make M3's hard to sell except to old people with genuine nostalgia or young people with imagined nostalgia. They will buy anything and then complain about problems on camera forums. So you should be looking for a recently serviced mint condition M3 and you'll know when you find it because the price will be much higher than an average one, but worth it.

However I'll argue that an M3 is the last camera to buy as a swansong to film photography, if you want to go out with a bigger bang consider an M2, or an M4 or M4-P, or buy another MP. Why? Because as a last throw of the dice wouldn't it be nice to have more usable framelines, load the film easier, or even have a meter? An MP will hold it's value and probably keep up with inflation ready to be snapped up by an enthusiastic film user three years from now knowing it will keep them going for another ten or twenty years of film photography. While an M3 will still be a fragile old camera desired by many but feared by an equal number. And while the M3 is considered as the Rolls Royce of cameras (mistakenly imo) by many if you've ever ridden in a vintage Rolls Royce you'll immediately feel the benefits of a more modern design. I've had three M3's in that past and the only Leica I would never buy again is another M3.

 

[guangong]

I bought my SS M3 about 50 yearls ago from Willy Schwartz, Camera VJew Central in NYC. (An old school Viennese camera dealer.)Even back then collectors were looking and paying more for low series numbers of DS M3s, Willy advised me to get SS. My SS version was much cheaper. Camera still going strong.
i would follow Sirius’ advice and get whatever you want in good condition. I’d worry about resale when time to sell. If memory serves me correctly, I believe I pair $156 for my used minty M3. Someone can calculate how much this is in this month’s dollars.

 

[Richard Jepsen]

250swb

You bring up excellent points. Two decades ago I bought the MP using your same logic. The MP is the best and I sold for 2x the purchase price. For me I would not repurchase a MP as my goal is to reduce tied up capital while retaining a mint basic outfit.

You articulated that the number of M3‘s you want to buy are low vs whats for sale. Thats spot on.

The number of cameras described as mint but having evidence or acknowledgement of fungus or other defects is correctly pointed out. As a result I usually filter my search for North America.

I started looking for a .85 TTL but reconsidered the merits of a super clean M3 as they are priced lower. Plus I never owned a M3. Its high mag finder and classic looks a hook. As to an in-camera meter I typically use a hand meter backed up by my eyes.

The issue with an overhauled M3 is you still risk finder separation and yellowing. You can re-laminate with modern glues but thats got to be expensive. DAG may offer that service but your camera will be tied up for a good amount of time. He had my M5 for 9 months for a CLA and battery compartment change.

The three Ms I owned were each .72. I shoot mostly with a 50 and prefer my Minolta CLE 40/2 over the cron (1969) 35/2. I was going to use the entire M3 finder to frame with the 40 and sell the 35/2.

I’m going to rethink and make sure I don’t fall into GAS.

 

[brbo]

Later M3 will be generally in better condition and on those (aim for serial numbers in the 11+ range) the rangefinder can easily be modified to follow down to 0.7m which was a minimum focus distance for most of M lenses in the last 50 years.

I had SS but not high enough SN so I could only adjust rangefinder to go down to something like 0.85m and it drove me mad when lens would lose rangefinder coupling at close distances.

If you don't care about that or don't want to modify the camera (the mod is reversible), just pick an M3 in the condition you can afford and according to your preference over dual or single stroke. I really can't see why M3s would go down in price in the next decade. It's not like anybody will start producing M mount rangefinders at sub $1.000 price. Additionally, even colour negative film seemed to have gained another life or two (after loosing one life to Fuji) and BW film will be around for many years to come...

 

[Jim Jones]

I bought my first Leica in 1953, and preferred that brand until going digital 13 years ago. Rather than ever selling my Leica gear, I'll keep it for the occasions where film still does well what digital perhaps can't do at all. Anyhow, my M4 with 30+ years of sometimes rough use, from arctic cold to dessert heat, doesn't look inviting to a buyer. It has some missing Vulcanite, many scuffs and minor dents, and a brightly polished top plate where the original neck strap has been rubbing all these years. It appears to still function normally, although it has never needed nor received service. Anything that has served so well for so long deserves to be treated as a treasured tool, not a mere item of commerce. I might give it to some special friend, but have no intentions of ever selling it.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The value is irrelevant, as what you are buying is a precision instrument with superb design which is unsurpassed by any 35mm camera ever made.

Buying cameras as an investment is not a good idea. Only buy a camera if you will use it and enjoy using it. There are much better places to invest ones money.

 

[GregY]

When I read your opening post I had to do a double take and check the date, it reads like a pessimistic posting from 2002 about the end of film photography. There are however more types of 35mm film available now than there was back then, and it may not be sold in such vast quantities, and it may not all be available from the local camera shop, but everybody else's optimism seems to be directly at odds with your assessment of where film photography will be in three years time.

So, the M3. There won't be 339 M3 cameras available to buy. The Japanese dealers while not being deceitful often have more than one moniker and while advertising the camera twice they sell it once. You need to be aware and factor in your fear tolerance that cameras and lenses from Japan sometimes have fungus, and while descriptions are mostly accurate from Japanese dealers cameras can be described as excellent 'considering there is a bit of fungus'. So already there aren't really 339 cameras worth choosing from, so now you start to look at fungus free cameras from the USA or Europe which is pretty much where everybody else is looking and this limit to the marketplace makes an M3 relatively rare in good condition. Just as a good M3 will be in three years time, rare, but without the decline in demand you anticipate.

The limiting factor with the M3 is in itself, not a decline in film photography. They are getting increasingly difficult to repair while at the same time need more repairs because many are coming up for their first service in sixty years. These factors plus any cosmetic problems make M3's hard to sell except to old people with genuine nostalgia or young people with imagined nostalgia. They will buy anything and then complain about problems on camera forums. So you should be looking for a recently serviced mint condition M3 and you'll know when you find it because the price will be much higher than an average one, but worth it.

However I'll argue that an M3 is the last camera to buy as a swansong to film photography, if you want to go out with a bigger bang consider an M2, or an M4 or M4-P, or buy another MP. Why? Because as a last throw of the dice wouldn't it be nice to have more usable framelines, load the film easier, or even have a meter? An MP will hold it's value and probably keep up with inflation ready to be snapped up by an enthusiastic film user three years from now knowing it will keep them going for another ten or twenty years of film photography. While an M3 will still be a fragile old camera desired by many but feared by an equal number. And while the M3 is considered as the Rolls Royce of cameras (mistakenly imo) by many if you've ever ridden in a vintage Rolls Royce you'll immediately feel the benefits of a more modern design. I've had three M3's in that past and the only Leica I would never buy again is another M3.

250, It's all a matter of personal preference. The M3 was made right up to 1966, so it is possible to find a little used one. Some users prefer fewer framelines (one of the key reasons i sold my MP). Apparently the OP has made the M3 his choice....and had previously owned/used others.
Having lived in Japan and also visited there afterwards....not every Leica or Leica lens has fungus.....no more so than Leicas in Florida or any coastal city in the UK. I've had very good experiences both buying online from Japanese sellers & in person in Tokyo and certainly would not discount them.

 

[Ai Print]

I have a 1956 M3 that was converted to SS years ago, I have had it for nearly 17 years and I had DAG do the once over to it when I first got it. I also have a souped up M6TTL and an M10-P. The M3 is the last Leica I would sell.

To me, it is the smoothest, purest Leica M I have ever used. The viewfinder experience with it's mint 50 Rigid is just Leica perfection.

I think it is "the" Leica to get so I would not worry about re-sale or any of that. Get one and just use it. If you dig it, then keep it and get on with making images with it.

 

[blee1996]

To me, it is the smoothest, purest Leica M I have ever used. The viewfinder experience with it's mint 50 Rigid is just Leica perfection.

Cannot agree more about that!

 

[Richard Jepsen]

I use my equipment and I’m in the darkroom weekly. I don’t think of my M5 and lenses as investments. I think of them as fine objects that I rent and return into the universe for someone else to enjoy. Not every object is like that but we can mostly agree Leica‘s are special.

If you were going to keep a Leica a lifetime…..price, as long as its reasonable, is not a big factor.