Zenit: Unfairly maligned?

David Lyga said:

What you wrote, Helge, should be framed in gold.- David Lyga

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Was the irony intentional here David?

David Lyga said:

NOW, Helge, I know why I always felt more European (derived from Sardinian and Ukrainian stock) than American. This is how I feel, also. Consumerism is a religion in the USA and I am agnostic even on this. The obsession to buy new, at all times, is what drives me crazy here. I have always marveled at how London scenes from the 50s would have even some cars from the thirties or even twenties. As far as I am concerned, this is an aspect that others have over Americans in a positive way. How I hate waste, and that includes wasting money. What you have written is all too true and even profound when looked at deeply and psychologically.

What you wrote, Helge, should be framed in gold.- David Lyga

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Trouble is sometimes, that kind of attitude and line of thought can lead to buying something twice because you where too stingy in the first place.
In other words it’s often expensive to buy cheap.

When that Petri or Praktica needs expensive repair for the fifth time, you are faced with the choice of trying your luck with another one, or just buying that Minolta or Nikon you lusted for, but cheaped out on.

What can be even worse, is that the naive first time user might consciously or subconsciously conflate/equate the bad experience with the cutdown, build to a price product with the whole category of products, souring them on the whole idea, or relegating it to toy status in their mind.

Helge said:

Trouble is sometimes, that kind of attitude and line of thought can lead to buying something twice because you where too stingy in the first place.
In other words it’s often expensive to buy cheap.

When that Petri or Praktica needs expensive repair for the fifth time, you are faced with the choice of trying your luck with another one, or just buying that Minolta or Nikon you lusted for, but cheaped out on.

What can be even worse, is that the naive first time user might consciously or subconsciously conflate/equate the bad experience with the cutdown, build to a price product with the whole category of products, souring them on the whole idea, or relegating it to toy status in their mind.

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There is a VAST difference between buying genuine quality and buying things to make others envious. I fully understand what you are getting at and I also fully agree with what you said, one thousand times over. Thank you. This needed to be said. - David Lyga

MattKing said:

Was the irony intentional here David?

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I honestly do not understand the irony. Please explain. I have a feeling that I am missing a joke and I do not like to be left out of the loop!!!

Oh!!! I think that my feeble brain just quantified your output. The 'gold' is, in and of itself, a waste of money. Did I manage to get your adroit message, Matt? I had had no idea that what I had said was, as you say, ironic, but, now, I see that it is. It takes David Lyga a few minutes (or hours) to experience spatial relationships. - David Lyga

David Lyga said:

The 'gold' is, in and of itself, a waste of money. Did I manage to get your adroit message, Matt?

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Close.
Helge's post is of course essentially about the over-valuation of things.
With the exception of some industrial uses, there is nothing more over-valued (in terms of price paid vs. intrinsic value) in this world than gold (unless you include diamonds).

MattKing said:

Close.
Helge's post is of course essentially about the over-valuation of things.
With the exception of some industrial uses, there is nothing more over-valued (in terms of price paid vs. intrinsic value) in this world than gold (unless you include diamonds).

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Yes, I bought some gold at the turn of the century when one troy ounce bullion was (are your prepared?) $250. NOW we are talking north of $1,800. Yes i would like more gold, but at more than 5X since 2001? No. There is too much risk of a downturn and, at 70, there are no second chances. Also stock market: I lost a fortune because I had kept my money in the bank. Little did I know that this stock market would serve to be the paradigm for justification of craziness in the extreme.

But, the MOST OVERVALUED, Matt? Did you ever check the price of palladium? - David Lyga

David Lyga said:

But, the MOST OVERVALUED, Matt? Did you ever check the price of palladium? - David Lyga

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Ah, but what true value resides in the depths of a well done platinum-palladium print?
Incalculable, I know!

MattKing said:

Ah, but what true value resides in the depths of a well done platinum-palladium print?
Incalculable, I know!

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That well has run dry.

MattKing said:

Close.
Helge's post is of course essentially about the over-valuation of things.
With the exception of some industrial uses, there is nothing more over-valued (in terms of price paid vs. intrinsic value) in this world than gold (unless you include diamonds).

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Wrong. US $ is way overrated. This is why people buy gold when things get messy.

Dali said:

Wrong. US $ is way overrated. This is why people buy gold when things get messy.

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Gold "value" these days is only reflecting average "value" of the stock market in general, both in idiotic territory.

I'm having fun collecting the older M39 mount Zenit gear. The original was basically a Zorki with a prism and a mirror on top! They clearly aren't manufactured to the level of the top line Japanese cameras of the day, but they have been very usable.

Dali said:

Wrong. US $ is way overrated. This is why people buy gold when things get messy.

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You are equating the value of gold with its market price.
Its intrinsic value is far less.

MattKing said:

You are equating the value of gold with its market price.
Its intrinsic value is far less.

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Gold's "intrinsic" value is what the coin dealer will pay, worldwide. And they are paying what the market says to pay. Otherwise, Matt, there is NO intrinsic value to gold: it cannot be eaten. It has NO VALUE WHATSOEVER WITHOUT A MARKETPLACE. There is NO problem getting $1,800 for one Krugerrand, anywhere on planet Earth. However, that does not mean that that intrinsic value will STAY where it is. THAT is the part to be cautious of. Given the meteoric rise, I would not count on it, but I said the same when one troy ounce was $1.200. I am ignorant here.

There is no currency on planet Earth which is not fiat. Even the Swiss franc now no longer has any requirements for gold to be on deposit in Switzerland. Every paper currency in the world is just paper and would be valueless were it not for the marketplace, buoyed by the political mandate and clout of the issuing entity. We are not still within an era of my childhood whereby our coins were made of silver. And we no longer allow foreign countries to convert their USD into a pre-determined amount of gold from the USA. None of that guaranteed convertibility exists anymore. The USA silver coins stopped when I was 14, in 1964, and the last link for the USD, held by foreign governments, being able to be converted at a pre-determined rate from the USA stopped during the Nixon administration. ALL currency is now with no intrinsic value other than what the market will bear. There is no longer any 'other' intrinsic value which can be determined by metal value alone. Even copper pennies were eliminated back in 1982 because the intrinsic copper value in one cent was beginning to supersede one cent in value.

Dali, you are VERY incorrect to state that, currently, the USD is vastly overrated, unless you are inferring that it is overrated conceptually and not value wise. Monetarily, value wise, it has fallen from grace and, unless there is wild printing in the future, will continue to try to hold onto its feeble value if the US government wished to keep inflation at bay. Perhaps you are thinking that it is overrated because it is so universally used and has great importance, worldwide. It has those traits and arguments can be made that its political status should also be dethroned. But its value has, many times over, already been dethroned mightily.

It was stated here that the professional cameras of the sixties included much from Germany. It did, but the Deutsche Mark in the sixties, just like the Swiss franc, was worth only 25 US cents. This made high quality camera buying rather easy and manufacturers could well afford to add this advantage to their respective build quality. Cost cutting was not yet becoming an obsession for these countries' manufacturers. The relatively weak currencies of the Germans and Japaneses back then aided their export markets with tremendous value for their respective bottom lines. They had little problem with being paid handsomely because they had weak currencies.

Now, the Deutsche Mark's replacement, the Euro, which was introduced back in 1999, was designed to have the same value as the expired Deutsche Mark. The current value of the Euro, just like the present Swiss franc, have value that is slightly greater than ONE, ONLY ONE, present US dollar. Much to ponder here. Before the Bretton Woods collapse, the Japanese yen was worth about 30% of one US cent. It is now worth about one US cent. Also it has appreciated mightily against the US dollar.

This explains A LOT concerning the camera business back in the sixties or early seventies. The all important date, 15 August 1971, is THE date that the Bretton Woods (New Hampshire where post WWII exchange rates were established in 1946) exchange rates collapsed. Now, they began to float freely and these rates were no longer subject to government mandate. Again, Switzerland, Germany and Japan are NOT expensive today if you simply divide their respective currencies by FOUR (three and a half in the case of Japan) in order to get what the US dollar cost would have been if the USD had NOT collapsed. In other words, the Swiss and Germans and Japanese never experienced such an increase in their respective costs of living, because their respective currencies have held value magnificently.

This change was intentional. The USA's need to promote its export businesses drove this push for a lower USD. And the relative increases in values for the Germans, Swiss, and Japanese have hurt their exports a great deal. In summation, governmental entities make hard decisions which do not please all constituents at all times. The USD is still on top with regards to currency choice for world-wide balance of payments, but its intrinsic value has been allowed to fall greatly from grace. There does come a point whereby other countries do not wish for this to continue. After all those other countries do not want a USD that is too weak because they need to be paid in their respective currencies for their exported goods. There is a give and take here: The USD 'took' for decades and now it is 'giving back'. - David Lyga

Tastes are different, where are those who are driving Trabant and finding it awesome.
I have Nikkormat which I paid for 24 CAD including giant flash and camera bag.
All it was needed is back seals. Everything else is working. It has much better focusing screen. Normal set of speeds, not communists daily food allowance style of Zenit.
With Zenits I have tried focusing screen was crap. Including specially made Zenit for person who was in charge of Zenit assembly line in Krasnogorsk. He happened to run wine store in our town.
In Russia Zenit is often associated with film camera. Not because it is great, but because for most it was best camera available.
Once borders were open those cameras were ditched in no time. Crapped out Zenit is common source for curtains to replace FED, Zorki old curtains in today FSU.

Ko.Fe. said:

Tastes are different, where are those who are driving Trabant and finding it awesome.
I have Nikkormat which I paid for 24 CAD including giant flash and camera bag.
All it was needed is back seals. Everything else is working. It has much better focusing screen. Normal set of speeds, not communists daily food allowance style of Zenit.
With Zenits I have tried focusing screen was crap. Including specially made Zenit for person who was in charge of Zenit assembly line in Krasnogorsk. He happened to run wine store in our town.
In Russia Zenit is often associated with film camera. Not because it is great, but because for most it was best camera available.
Once borders were open those cameras were ditched in no time. Crapped out Zenit is common source for curtains to replace FED, Zorki old curtains in today FSU.

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Funny how you fix a crapped out FED or Zorki using parts from of a crapped out Zenit.

They can be usable cameras, but truth be told none of them are bargains especially by Western prices.

Once curiosity factor wanes, it is easy to see superior cameras at same or even lower prices, to this day. For what Zenit or its brothers (maybe sisters ) are selling, there is a bunch of quality available from virtually all big well known film camera brands.

A nice lens on a hopelessly romanticized body.

My 1st SLR was a Praktica Super TL bought in the mid 1970s second hand. It was either the second hand Praktica or a new Zenit and I wanted the nicer handling Praktica. To a teenager with limited funds, the Praktica looked and felt more sophisticated.

Regarding the reliability of Zenits, because I lived in the Republic of Ireland, all Soviet cameras came through Technical and Optical Equipment (TOE) in London, UK. They would check every camera and if needed repair it so that all Zenit, Zorki, Fed were reliable cameras.
See here: http://cameras.alfredklomp.com/toe/

When I wanted my own enlarger I bought a new Zenit UPA5M, an enlarger that dismantled into a suitcase.

StepheKoontz said:

I'm having fun collecting the older M39 mount Zenit gear. The original was basically a Zorki with a prism and a mirror on top! They clearly aren't manufactured to the level of the top line Japanese cameras of the day, but they have been very usable.

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I have found the Zenit S to be a remarkably fun and usable camera even with the slow and non-preset I-50 kit lens. The internals will be very close to Leica II mechanisms with the addition of a winch to pull on the mirror cable. While the materials will not be to German standards in terms of hardness and machining, the shared design heritage speaks to the repairibility of the early Zenits. As for the E that everyone hates, what little I've seen of the mechanism seems similar enough, but I'm gathering the lever wind was a weak point and that the machining was much worse overall.

Still, mine runs fantastic.

David, I stand correct regarding the $ being overrated. Everyone knows that it is not even worth the paper it is printed on but everyone looks the other way because of the huge trade deficit USA cannot even pay. Every 10 years (give or take, between 2 economic collapses), trillions are injected in the economy. Where are they coming from? Spontaneous generation? And it does not have a negative impact on the $ value? This is economic magic, money creation without added value, the ultimate snakeoil we are asked to believe. Bank notes say "In God we trust", which is way appropriate because I don't trust the US Treasury nor the Federal Reserve.

Back to the original topic: Are Zenit good cameras? I got one, a Zenit 3M and it was OK, no thrill, pretty basic but no problem, basically a Zorki rangefinder with a reflex box. Does not mean that all Zenit cameras are OK... so my experience is irrelevant to answer the question.

Ko.Fe. said:

Tastes are different, where are those who are driving Trabant and finding it awesome.
I have Nikkormat which I paid for 24 CAD including giant flash and camera bag.
All it was needed is back seals. Everything else is working. It has much better focusing screen. Normal set of speeds, not communists daily food allowance style of Zenit.
With Zenits I have tried focusing screen was crap. Including specially made Zenit for person who was in charge of Zenit assembly line in Krasnogorsk. He happened to run wine store in our town.
In Russia Zenit is often associated with film camera. Not because it is great, but because for most it was best camera available.
Once borders were open those cameras were ditched in no time. Crapped out Zenit is common source for curtains to replace FED, Zorki old curtains in today FSU.

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Which Nikkormat? My FTn has not a trace of light sealing left and it doesn't leak.

I have an early 39mm Zenit E with silver shutter speed dial. I have not yet performed maintenance on it, but quality appears good: All markings are engraved, top and bottom halves of leather case can be separated. I'd like to pair it with a silver Mir-1 "Grand Prix" lens. Viewfinder is dim as you'd expect when used with 50/3.5 Industar. Brightest Zenit viewfinders that I've seen have been in very late post-USSR Zenit 122K, KM+ as sold by Lomography until recently.

One thing I like to check with Soviet cameras, and particularly Zenits is whether any screws are loose (and sometimes find quite a few) I apply Loctite Blue to them.

Dali said:

David, I stand correct regarding the $ being overrated. Everyone knows that it is not even worth the paper it is printed on but everyone looks the other way because of the huge trade deficit USA cannot even pay. Every 10 years (give or take, between 2 economic collapses), trillions are injected in the economy. Where are they coming from? Spontaneous generation? And it does not have a negative impact on the $ value? This is economic magic, money creation without added value, the ultimate snakeoil we are asked to believe. Bank notes say "In God we trust", which is way appropriate because I don't trust the US Treasury nor the Federal Reserve.

Back to the original topic: Are Zenit good cameras? I got one, a Zenit 3M and it was OK, no thrill, pretty basic but no problem, basically a Zorki rangefinder with a reflex box. Does not mean that all Zenit cameras are OK... so my experience is irrelevant to answer the question.

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Dali: do you "stand correct" or do you "stand correctED"?
Where are all the surplus dollars coming from? Quantitative Easing.
"In God We Trust" lends credibility to the currency? Honestly, I would much prefer "In Gold We Trust",
Fact is, to a rather large extent, "fiat" does work. But the potential for inflation and currency devaluations are rather profound. A stable currency is not as important to many nations as is guaranteed ability to export. The two conflict with each other. - David Lyga

From some responses it appears to me there is a tendency to make Soviet cameras what they've never been. Usable? Yes, generally speaking. Reliable? Not enough. Good value for money? Never. I still have a few, at least one from all but one nickname. They work, but I hardly touch them for actual photography. Still want to find a working Leningrad, for the fun of having it.

RLangham said:

Which Nikkormat? My FTn has not a trace of light sealing left and it doesn't leak.

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The back doors of Nikon camera's are inherently light tight. The seal is there to keep dust out.

RLangham said:

Which Nikkormat? My FTn has not a trace of light sealing left and it doesn't leak.

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I don't know. FTn, I guess.